Debating the existence of Jesus

[Minimalist]

He's a fucking baptist. That's a whole other level of stupid.

[Rahul]

He's a fucking baptist. That's a whole other level of stupid.

Baptists are more stupid than the other denominations? How odd of a statement.

Most of those guys were indoctrinated in it from birth. I heard somewhere once that only one in twelve people indoctrinated in religion from childhood are ever able to make the inuitive leap to leave it.

It's kind of like you are blaming the victim here. I just think he's yet another poor sap that was fucked over from the get go.

[Mister Agenda]

I'm surprised that people who argue for an historical Jesus tend to overlook the best evidence for his existence: analysis of the Gospels. A fictional messiah would have been easier to match to messianic expectations, many Gospel passages seem to be attempts to refute ways in which Yeshua didn't match those expectations. Why was his mom already pregnant when she got married? Why would the son of God need to be baptized by John? Why would the son of God allow himself to be crucified (a particularly shameful death by Hebrew mores of the time)?

I'm not sure whether to put the odds of there actually being an apocalyptic preacher named Yeshua on whose teachings and (exagerrated) deeds the Gospels were based over or under 50%; but I don't think there's a slam-dunk for either case.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm surprised that people who argue for an historical Jesus tend to overlook the best evidence for his existence: analysis of the Gospels. A fictional messiah would have been easier to match to messianic expectations, many Gospel passages seem to be attempts to refute ways in which Yeshua didn't match those expectations. Why was his mom already pregnant when she got married? Why would the son of God need to be baptized by John? Why would the son of God allow himself to be crucified (a particularly shameful death by Hebrew mores of the time)?

I'm not sure whether to put the odds of there actually being an apocalyptic preacher named Yeshua on whose teachings and (exagerrated) deeds the Gospels were based over or under 50%; but I don't think there's a slam-dunk for either case.

-because that wasn't the story the authors wished to tell, on every count. Alot of those things you think are inconvenient for a "fictional jesus" are precisely what establishes theology. A messiah that matched the expectations would have simply been a re-eforcement of judaism. -That-...is what would have been inconvenient, for a christian or christian movement.

"Jesus" - fulfilling messianic prophecy without deviation and in no uncertain terms would have left no room for "Christ", the object of reverence and source of theology for christians.

(consider the correlary of the muslim jesus, doing and saying -largely- the same things but instead...re-enforcing islamic theology. These characters do what the author wants them to do, as always)

I, personally, don't care about an apocalyptic preacher named Yeshua. That person would have as much in common with the jesus of the gospels as Abe Lincoln has with the character of the same name in Abe Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. To me, this is nothing more than saying.."well, there could have been a guy named Joe somewhere, once upon a time". Yes, of course...and Steve and Bill and John, and Bobby......, and? Is the case for "Yeshua" or Joe, or Steve, or Bill, or John, or Bobby any more compelling than the case for "Jesus"?

[Doubting Thomas]

Now if you are going to ask me when Judas found the time to write his I couldn't tell you.

I know how it would end, though. "I feel really bad for turning over the son of God to be executed. After I buy a field with the money I threw back into the temple I'm going to go hang myself after I fall down and my guts spill out."

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It's kind of like you are blaming the victim here. I just think he's yet another poor sap that was fucked over from the get go.

To a certain extent, maybe. But he's here and being faced with evidence to the contrary, and instead of actually looking at evidence to find the truth, he sticks his fingers in his ears and ignores anything which contradicts his religion. It's one thing to be brainwashed from birth, it's another thing to stay willfully ignorant.

[Rahul]

To a certain extent, maybe. But he's here and being faced with evidence to the contrary, and instead of actually looking at evidence to find the truth, he sticks his fingers in his ears and ignores anything which contradicts his religion. It's one thing to be brainwashed from birth, it's another thing to stay willfully ignorant.

He's obviously hardcore into this shit. If he really does get intellectually honest with himself, mull over the facts, and deconverts his entire world is going to fall apart.

That possibility probably terrifies him so he's fighting like his life depends on it.

Some people are just too far gone.

Most of my family is like this. It makes me angry at religion, but it just makes me feel sad for them.

[Minimalist]

Baptists are more stupid than the other denominations? How odd of a statement.

I guess you don't know many baptists.

[Rahul]

I guess you don't know many baptists.

I've known quite a number of them. I was a baptist for over a quarter of a century.

[FifthElement]

Their deaths were instantaneous, they were not imprisoned on numerous occasions, they were not stone, nor whipped for their beliefs, no one threatened their lives over and over. The disciples did not see themselves as martyrs, they actually placed themselves below others, they considered they were servants to others.

So if I died while I was tortured for days I would be like one of your disciples (of atheism) ???

1. I was imprisoned (in concentration camp) for 11 moths.

2. I was beaten up and water-boarded for days for my non-belief (by christians, i'm not saying that sooner or later muslims or protestants wouldn't do the same thing) among other things.

3. I was (and I still am) true servant of others, defending my county without pay and without wanting anything in return (and I would do the same for USA), always volunteering to help others, always giving blood, always responding to help others in natural disasters, was with IRC for about year, always giving money to charity, etc.

Well, newsflash for ya: I am simply just NICE ...

Something you religious people who know I'm an atheist always get confused by ... makes you wonder, maybe the devil has a nice side, just that your master never sent you a memo about it, maybe in another iteration of his the holy book, eh, lol

Tell you what, even though I respect religious folk, maybe a bit more they ya all deserve, if your doctrine did not go to ridiculous lengths to convince
the fold that atheist are bad and cannot possibly be good without god, that respect would most likely go all the way

[Minimalist]

I guess you don't know many baptists.

I've known quite a number of them. I was a baptist for over a quarter of a century.

All the ones I've ever run across are fundie nutbags like G-C.