Differing Interpretations on Yahweh's Morality and Capabilities

[Jiggerj]

This is what tonus ment about the intellegent trying to teach the obstainent. I provided you example after example of Miricals performed in my Life; My Trip to Hell, My messenger/message account, my contraction of HIV/my miraculous recovery, my wife's 10 year 250 dollar aday addiction to Herion, her "flipped a switch off" non typical recovery, My business, and how it was established, The 25K dollar loan that I got from a stranger that I had only met once before he offered an intrest free loan, and on and on and on...

You claim these things to be miracles. Okay, let's say they are. Let's also say that god is very real. What does that mean? It means that god helped you with a disease, helped with your wife's addiction, and he set you up with a business and a loan. Yet this omnipotent asshole allows 20,864 people to die from hunger related causes EVERY DAY! No, I would not worship such a cold-hearted, murderous maniac. I would refuse such special treatment as you have received because this god would literally make me sick to my soul.

http://www.poverty.com/http://www.poverty.com/

What did this child ever do to cause god to abandon him?



Enjoy your miraculous life. I know I couldn't.

[Drich]

This is what tonus ment about the intellegent trying to teach the obstainent. I provided you example after example of Miricals performed in my Life; My Trip to Hell, My messenger/message account, my contraction of HIV/my miraculous recovery, my wife's 10 year 250 dollar aday addiction to Herion, her "flipped a switch off" non typical recovery, My business, and how it was established, The 25K dollar loan that I got from a stranger that I had only met once before he offered an intrest free loan, and on and on and on... Then I have told you that all of these things are evidence in the full fillment of the promises God makes in the bible. That these things were not just offered to me. they are offered to anyone who will humble himself and A/S/K as out lined in Luke 11.

You and I have two completely different ideas of what would constitute a miracle. You are much easier to convince. It baffles me that you chalk-up the things you wrote above as miracles.

When I say miracle, I have this definition in mind:

Miracle-an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

None of the things you offered as examples qualify. If you think they do, you are a fool looking to reinforce what you wish to be true.

Your entire response is exactly what I expected you to say. You've offered no clarity to your insanity. You are a fool.

When I A/S/K God answered by giving me Exactly what i needed to see and experience, to provide me with the exact evidence i needed to establish and sustain my faith.

When/if you A/S/K God will answer by giving exactly what you need. (and if you are faithfull you will be given more.) If your not then what you do have will be taken from you. which generally leads to the harding of the Heart.

In short my examples were for me. If you want to witness your own miricals as you say you do, then you have to A/S/K as I did.(As per Luke 11)

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I'm not sure of the details you recount of this, but, the human mind is capable of drastically misinterpreting experiences. It is probable your mind had some sort of experience, but your interpretation is incorrect.

If a Hindu told you, with the same conviction as you have for your experience, that he took a trip to Naraka (Hindu hell), would you be convinced that he was recounting the truth?

Can the Hindu offer you a trip to see for yourself?

I provided the method I used to warrant a trip to Hell and said that God garantees you a trip there if you do what I did... It's just the return trip home maybe on you to work out for yourself.

There have been a few cases of natural remissions.

OMG where were you 3 weeks ago when this whole message board told me I was out of my mind and a liar... To your point: There have been a few cases of people being blinded and their sight returning on their own, and natural occourances of cancer going into remission, and people who could not walk getting up and going home. The point?
My occourance happened 20 years ago when AIDS was indeed a death sentence and no one knew of anyone who had a case that simply 'cleared up on it's own.' even now it is an extreme rarity, and no one can convince me that at some point those who were afflicted did not cry out to their understanding of God in one way or another. whether be pleading, indifference, or anger eventually in that situation one turns to God.

But think about what you're saying. There are a million people dying of AIDS all over Africa every year, and your god has the ability to cure them, but instead he cures one person in a country with advanced medical science?

In my situation I might as well have been in africa for all the my finances could afford me.

If this god actually did exist, as a moral person,

Ask yourself Why would God need to fit your defination of 'morality' if He were indeed God?

you should be praying every day that your god reinfects you with AIDS and cures the 1300 that are dying every day in Africa. That's what I would do.

What if I don't want the billions in Africa to be cured of Aids?

What if i see the semitry of it all and know the role the suffering play in this life?

For example We are told to Not judge another unless we ourselves are willing and able to stand up to the same measure we use against another. Let's use your last statement as an example of this. You said if you were me you would ask God to reinfect me with AIDS and take away the virus from the billions in Africa who have it. Right? If I turn your judgement back onto you I could simply ask you why don't you pray this prayer now? What's stopping you from martyering yourself to remove the suffering of the people in Africa. Matter of Fact if you want i can pray this prayer along side of you if you think it will have God lisen to your petition.

We all have a role to play in this world. Some suffer, some survive, while other's thrive. It is to the role we play that determines the severity in which our judgement ultimatly comes. If you see AIDS in africa as a problem, then know God has placed it on your heart to do something about it. If you do nothing other than judge and blame God, when you have been given the resources to at least do something, then their will be Hell to pay.

Not typical yes, miracle, no.

My cousin was a heroin addicted prostitute on the streets of Hollywood for almost 10 years. She stopped both behaviors in a single day.

You got nothing special.

In of it self this like anything else on it own can be quickly dismissed, but when stuff like this is compiled day after day, month after month Year after Year Decade after Decade, it gets a little hard to dismiss in one's own life.

Do you believe you are the only person that has ever received a large loan from a stranger? Do you think that every large loan from a stranger is miraculous?

And you wonder why we're not impressed.

What you have failed to see is that i am not offering my experiences as your 'proof' of God. Are you so blind and so filled with Hate you can not see I am saying that God has promised to work these types of things into your own lives? So you can have first hand knoweledge of Him?

AGAIN My experiences were meant for me to establish and maintian my own faith. God in Luke 11 offers you the same deal. (taylored to fit your life and your needs.)

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You claim these things to be miracles. Okay, let's say they are. Let's also say that god is very real. What does that mean? It means that god helped you with a disease, helped with your wife's addiction, and he set you up with a business and a loan. Yet this omnipotent asshole allows 20,864 people to die from hunger related causes EVERY DAY!

Did God let them die, or did you?
Look at everything I mentioned, every instance of these miricals happening are examples of people (myself included) heeding the call to be faithful to not only what they were given but giving all they had in filling needs as we saw them. There was a two part colliberation. The first being the people involved doing whatever they could do to fill a need they saw, and the second part (the miricalous part) God filling the gap between the limits of what we could do, and the end result of the various miracle.

You obviously see a need in Africa, so my question to you is, what have you done to fill that need?

No, I would not worship such a cold-hearted, murderous maniac.

Not even if He gave you and everyone like you who see this need, the power to fill it on your own? What if this the great Irony you face at judgement? In that God Literally gave you and those like you complete control/power over what happens to the starving people in Africa? Then took the measure of judgement you used against Him and used it on you butt holes for sitting back and doing nothing, but having the power to completely fill this need?

I would refuse such special treatment as you have received because this god would literally make me sick to my soul.

again there is nothing special here. what is offered to me is offered to you and those who are in Africa.

What did this child ever do to cause god to abandon him?

Perhaps gave You the power to help him.

Enjoy your miraculous life. I know I couldn't.

Again, you are enjoying a mirical filled life. Or do you not consider the things you have are miricals to those like you have depicted? Again you have the power authority and control to help those people in africa, and if you do nothing then you are like the one whom you've judged with such great contempt. The only difference is at the end of the day you will have to answer for your own inactivity even after you have seen and recognised the problem.

[The Reality Salesman01]

[Lemonvariable72]

And to all the folks that accepts drippy's claim I have a great deal for you. Just send your credit card info to [email protected]. for a extra bonus you can include your SIN number and date of birth

[Michael Schubert]

This is absolutly nothing new. The Command to Love your Lord God with All of your being has Always been in effect. NT or Old.

The Holy Bible is the most disgusting book ever written, and Jesus Christ (assuming he even existed and did what he did in the Holy Bible) is a disgusting human being. Christ claims you must join him and love him more than your mother and father, who gave you life. He also supports the teachings of the Old Testament, which includes the murdering of homosexuals, men selling their daughters as slaves, and forcing women to marry men who rape them. In Matthew, Christ drives demons out of a man and puts the demonic spirits in a herd of pigs. What did those poor pigs do to Jesus? Absolutely nothing. Jesus Christ only cured people of blindness and leprosy to show he was the messiah's son? Once again: Christ did that for political purposes, but medical researchers did it to help humanity.

Like all religions, Christianity is primitive and illogical. Why do you think humans have been inventing more and more different gods for these past thousands of years? The answer is simple: No one individual can truly know God, so people continue to disagree about God, so they start new religions. This is exactly why Catholicism branched off into Protestantism, which in turn branched off into Methodism and Presbyterianism. God has no manifested measurable qualities that you can see and observe. It is irrational to believe in something you cannot observe and study.

[Drich]

The Holy Bible is the most disgusting book ever written, and Jesus Christ (assuming he even existed and did what he did in the Holy Bible) is a disgusting human being. Christ claims you must join him and love him more than your mother and father, who gave you life. He also supports the teachings of the Old Testament, which includes the murdering of homosexuals, men selling their daughters as slaves, and forcing women to marry men who rape them. In Matthew, Christ drives demons out of a man and puts the demonic spirits in a herd of pigs. What did those poor pigs do to Jesus? Absolutely nothing. Jesus Christ only cured people of blindness and leprosy to show he was the messiah's son? Once again: Christ did that for political purposes, but medical researchers did it to help humanity.

You guys are all the same. You start out trying to use the bible to illustrate a point it back fires, when someone actually knows the bible shows you you're wrong then you rant, hate on the bible/God and try and dismiss it somehow. It's like you are all pre programed at some great factory to all think and act like.

Like all religions, Christianity is primitive and illogical.

Unlike your 'education' that had you fling your verbal poop at what you obviously did not understand well enough to properly dismiss in the paragraph above.

Why do you think humans have been inventing more and more different gods for these past thousands of years?

Like?

The answer is simple:

Indeed. When people do not like what God has to say the branch off and create a new one. Like in the last few hundred years all non-God worship is directed to 'science.'

No one individual can truly know God, so people continue to disagree about God, so they start new religions. This is exactly why Catholicism branched off into Protestantism, which in turn branched off into Methodism and Presbyterianism. God has no manifested measurable qualities that you can see and observe. It is irrational to believe in something you cannot observe and study.

So let me get this straight. Because we can not put God in a box and know all of His in, and Outs we can not worship Him as God??

Maybe think on that a little more and try again.

[Michael Schubert]

You guys are all the same. You start out trying to use the bible to illustrate a point it back fires, when someone actually knows the bible shows you you're wrong then you rant, hate on the bible/God and try and dismiss it somehow. It's like you are all pre programed at some great factory to all think and act like.

Can you actually demonstrate that the Christian God exists? People have been inventing Gods like Yahweh, Krishna, Zeus, Apollo, The Evil Alien Lord Xenu, and many others for the past few centuries. You worship someone you can't see or speak to, and do not understand.

[Drich]

You worship someone you can't see or speak to, and do not understand.

How do you know any of this to be true?

Do you assume this because you tried and you got no response/did not get what you wanted. Or is your belief based on hear-say, maybe someone a whole lot smarter than you has tried to petition or barter with God and did not get what he asked for so he started to take the bible apart, in a way consitent with how you been taught to accept an arguement, and you simply jumped on the bandwagon?

-Or was it a little bit of both??

Maybe you asked God for X in exchange for Y and you did Y and got squat in return so in rebellion you sought the wisdumb of someone who seemingly is about to disprove God?

[Michael Schubert]

You worship someone you can't see or speak to, and do not understand.

How do you know any of this to be true?

Listen, buddy, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Christians assert that God (Yahweh) is an actual existing being who is part of objective reality. Atheists reject these claims because all you have to support these theistic claims is a book written by fallible humans numerous years ago.

To make this more lucid and thorough, listen to Tracie's Fallacy Model.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvftq2yst...5_gSByMyr7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1DHYWEotOQ

This God you worship does not have any measurable manifested qualities to it. In fact, the Holy Bible states in one passage that God is one entity, and another passage states God is polytheistic and speaks for other gods. If you disagree when I say God is not measurable by any means, then please edify me. You accept your God entirely on faith, which is why I said you worship a God that you cannot hear, see or speak to.

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Again, you are enjoying a mirical filled life. Or do you not consider the things you have are miricals to those like you have depicted?

In regards to miracles, my friend, Jen and Tracie can do a much better job at explaining this than I can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkHLyuDi-...r7&index=8

[Michael Schubert]

This is what tonus ment about the intellegent trying to teach the obstainent. I provided you example after example of Miricals performed in my Life; My Trip to Hell, My messenger/message account, my contraction of HIV/my miraculous recovery, my wife's 10 year 250 dollar aday addiction to Herion, her "flipped a switch off" non typical recovery,

How exactly did your wife break her addiction? Seriously (I'm not being sarcastic), I want to hear her story.