Evolution Trumps Creationism

[max-greece]

Lets see. Millions of people (probably the majority) believed:

In Witches.

Belief in witches did not spawn from Christianity. Witch craft (not the hippy Wiccan BS) was an establish religion. One that the general populace responded very negatively towards.

Riiiight and the church played no role in the burning of any woman that looked like a witch over a period of 400 years across Europe.

In Slavery.

slavery built every world power humanity has ever known. To dismiss slavery is to dismiss those who made countries great.

And that makes it OK? Even if it were true (which it probably isn't - low paid servants could have done all the same tasks and more).

In the inferiority of the Black man.

Not just the black man, but all minorities. Which was true because of the political structure of a given soceity. Whether they be white black Asian or Hispanic. It is a simple observation made from a position of power. For when Spain ruled the world all Anglo races were inferior, why because the spainards restricted what Anglos could do in their regions of control.

We are not talking about inferior as a result of less rights. We are talking about the genuine belief that the Black man was a distinct sub-species of lower capabilities than the white man. This allowed the Church to exclude them from any of the normal rules (loving your neighbour and so on).

The same was true for the Japanese, Chinese, Germans, and Americans, as well as native Americans at certain points in history and yes even the black man where his numbers out number all other races. Like it our not where ever there is a prevelancy of one race or one culture over another then that race/culture will be the primary culture one has to yield his or her own culture to while in that societies space. A lessor man with a chip on his shoulder would say that makes him inferior, when in reality it simple means one is apart of a global community and can share the mantel of responsiablity that comes when ones own culture is in the majority.

Some can do this while others can not. Does it mean that a culture that can not share this title of ethenic majority responsibly and not oppress everyone else is better or worse than one who can? (Careful how you answer.)

Have you noticed how Christians never managed to behave better than anyone else. The highest aspirations of the religious to justify themselves is to prove that they were not worse than anyone else. That's what I call setting the bar very low.

In the inferiority of women.

Women simple have different biological roles to play. Different does not mean better or worse.

Equality as long as they are in the kitchen or the bedroom? Why does this look like its your current opinion?

That homosexuals molest children.
....

If a man molests a little boy that by definition makes him a homosexual pedophile.

Scratch a Christian to reveal his inner bigot:
If a man molests a little boy that makes him a pedophile.
If a man molests a little girl that makes him a pedophile.

A man that prefers sex with other men is a homosexual.
A man that prefers sex with women is a heterosexual.

The one is neither more nor less likely to be/become a pedophile.

The crime of paedophilia is not determined by the gender of the child in question.

How long a list do you want?

You can make the list as long as you like just know that circumstance dictates morality. You are in a unique position to look down at every generation that came before you and find fault with how they lived, never taking into account how you would live in that exact same situation.

Put yourself In The middle of the zombie apocalypse, and ask yourself where your current morals would be? After if you take away the last 300 years of mod cons, that is the time period you are describing, the level of western culture, and a fairly good understanding of the danger and situation you'd be living in if you understood the word zombie to be a metaphore for the the desperate acts poverty stricken men were driven to.

No super cities, no real authority or government over the citizens and their actions. No one to answer to. In that situation where do you think/how long do you think your modern 'morality' would allow you to live? How long before your current 'morals' would see you eaten by a 'zombie?'

And what is it that separated us from the generations gone by? Is it religion? No.

Oh look - everything you have cited comes from science. Science allows us to enjoy a higher standard of morality than we have ever had. God failed to do that.

Thank you for proving that our morality does not come from God. It is so nice to find a theist who accepts this.

[Brian37]

God is the producer of said evidence. Again 1/3 of the worlds population seem to have found it, 2% simply refuse to look as instructed.

So let me ask you this: can you envision a possibility wherein one could examine the evidence you're thinking of and not find it compelling?

Because if you can't, then that kind of points to a different problem than the one you're accusing us of.

I really find it absurd that believers think because they are the majority that must mean they are right. The reality of our species is that we have far too often in our history defaulted to gap filling rather than testing with good quality control to insure good data.

They refuse to face the reality that all god/s are merely their own wishful thinking and an anthropomorphic reflection of their childish ego.

[Drich]

God is the producer of said evidence. Again 1/3 of the worlds population seem to have found it, 2% simply refuse to look as instructed.

So let me ask you this: can you envision a possibility wherein one could examine the evidence you're thinking of and not find it compelling?

Because if you can't, then that kind of points to a different problem than the one you're accusing us of.

You've moved the goal posts. This topic was not about compelling evidence.

It was about 2% of the worlds population calling the vast majority of the inhabitances of the planet alive or ever have lived crazy because we do no think like the 2%ers do.

It's like the 2%ers of the motorcycle community (the hard core bike club guys) calling the guy who rides his bike for fun a poser. Or a pretender. When in reality the 98%ers repersent what the motorcycling community really is! and it is the 2%ers who are out of touch with reality.

---

The results of a/s/k is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Here is the translation that your first showed:

5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

I have already proven you wrong about your a/s/k. I said I followed the instructions as stated by the scripture and I received no holy spirit.

It states all who asks will receive the holy spirit.

I asked for one night at least and still no holy spirit.

Why only one night you might ask? It states a time limit of one night(midnight until he gets up) because in the parable it states the only reason the friend will not get the loaves is that he is still in bed.


Let us just assume your right about such a thing as the holy spirit for the following.

Ask you will receive
Seek you will find
Knock you will open

To receive the holy spirit you must ask.(luke 11-13)

Ask+seek+knock = holy spirit correct
Ask+seek = holy spirit correct
Ask+knock= holy spirit correct
Ask = holy spirit correct
seek+knock = holy spirit incorrect
seek = holy spirit incorrect
knock = holy spirit incorrect

Do you understand the above?

Your problem is you see what is not there.

Here is a list of questions that you need to answer to have any chance to be able to say that you have to a/s/k to to receive the holy spirit.

In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?

Now I would like you now to show me where christ converts the asking into knocking?

How many asks does it take to equal a knock?

Please show me what will be found if I "seek"? No assumptions please.

Please show me what will be opened if I "knock"? No assumptions please.

Look I'm done this an arguement by ad nausium. You have your contextual answers. Youre wanting to argue a contextual explaination Christ Himself gave. I'm not Him your arguement is with him and not me so again I'm done.
Maybe you can save this for him when you see him.

Just know in your heart of hearts you did not A/S/K as outlined in Luke 11. If you stopped knocking before you received what you were asking and seeking after you did not follow the instructions.

---

Belief in witches did not spawn from Christianity. Witch craft (not the hippy Wiccan BS) was an establish religion. One that the general populace responded very negatively towards.

Riiiight and the church played no role in the burning of any woman that looked like a witch over a period of 400 years across Europe.

In Slavery.

slavery built every world power humanity has ever known. To dismiss slavery is to dismiss those who made countries great.

And that makes it OK? Even if it were true (which it probably isn't - low paid servants could have done all the same tasks and more).

In the inferiority of the Black man.

Not just the black man, but all minorities. Which was true because of the political structure of a given soceity. Whether they be white black Asian or Hispanic. It is a simple observation made from a position of power. For when Spain ruled the world all Anglo races were inferior, why because the spainards restricted what Anglos could do in their regions of control.

We are not talking about inferior as a result of less rights. We are talking about the genuine belief that the Black man was a distinct sub-species of lower capabilities than the white man. This allowed the Church to exclude them from any of the normal rules (loving your neighbour and so on).

The same was true for the Japanese, Chinese, Germans, and Americans, as well as native Americans at certain points in history and yes even the black man where his numbers out number all other races. Like it our not where ever there is a prevelancy of one race or one culture over another then that race/culture will be the primary culture one has to yield his or her own culture to while in that societies space. A lessor man with a chip on his shoulder would say that makes him inferior, when in reality it simple means one is apart of a global community and can share the mantel of responsiablity that comes when ones own culture is in the majority.

Some can do this while others can not. Does it mean that a culture that can not share this title of ethenic majority responsibly and not oppress everyone else is better or worse than one who can? (Careful how you answer.)

Have you noticed how Christians never managed to behave better than anyone else. The highest aspirations of the religious to justify themselves is to prove that they were not worse than anyone else. That's what I call setting the bar very low.

In the inferiority of women.

Women simple have different biological roles to play. Different does not mean better or worse.

Equality as long as they are in the kitchen or the bedroom? Why does this look like its your current opinion?

That homosexuals molest children.
....

If a man molests a little boy that by definition makes him a homosexual pedophile.

Scratch a Christian to reveal his inner bigot:
If a man molests a little boy that makes him a pedophile.
If a man molests a little girl that makes him a pedophile.

A man that prefers sex with other men is a homosexual.
A man that prefers sex with women is a heterosexual.

The one is neither more nor less likely to be/become a pedophile.

The crime of paedophilia is not determined by the gender of the child in question.

How long a list do you want?

You can make the list as long as you like just know that circumstance dictates morality. You are in a unique position to look down at every generation that came before you and find fault with how they lived, never taking into account how you would live in that exact same situation.

Put yourself In The middle of the zombie apocalypse, and ask yourself where your current morals would be? After if you take away the last 300 years of mod cons, that is the time period you are describing, the level of western culture, and a fairly good understanding of the danger and situation you'd be living in if you understood the word zombie to be a metaphore for the the desperate acts poverty stricken men were driven to.

No super cities, no real authority or government over the citizens and their actions. No one to answer to. In that situation where do you think/how long do you think your modern 'morality' would allow you to live? How long before your current 'morals' would see you eaten by a 'zombie?'

And what is it that separated us from the generations gone by? Is it religion? No.

Oh look - everything you have cited comes from science. Science allows us to enjoy a higher standard of morality than we have ever had. God failed to do that.

Thank you for proving that our morality does not come from God. It is so nice to find a theist who accepts this.

So, if the economy fails and there is panic in the streets, we will still have our science correct? So do you think A.) The panic in the streets of every major city in the world will result in just another oppertunity for modern man to exhibit his superior morality? Or B.) soceity will fall somewhere between The walking Dead, and Mad Max?

If science is the glue that you say it is then why does every projection we have point toward total anarchy? Is this because of God in your estimation and the bible? -or is it that full bellies and the system of society we currently enjoy allows us to be different than every generation before this one? Take that soceity way, and modern man will shame its fathers in the level of depraveity we will sink to, just because we lost our supermarkets and air conditioning.

You are a mindless drone if you can not recognize this fact.

Science does not make you a better person, the fact that you do not have to worry about your next meal, and your mod cons makes you a better person.

[Bad Writer]

It would please people like Drich to no end to know that we at least spent our entire lives knocking, even if the action never resulted in an answer. Fuck that noise.

[Silver]

It would please people like Drich to no end to know that we at least spent our entire lives knocking, even if the action never resulted in an answer. Fuck that noise.

Instead of knocking on an imaginary door for an imaginary deity to make itself known to us, we should be knocking on theists heads and asking if anyone is home in there.

[pocaracas]

So, if the economy fails and there is panic in the streets, we will still have our science correct? So do you think A.) The panic in the streets of every major city in the world will result in just another oppertunity for modern man to exhibit his superior morality? Or B.) soceity will fall somewhere between The walking Dead, and Mad Max?

If science is the glue that you say it is then why does every projection we have point toward total anarchy? Is this because of God in your estimation and the bible? -or is it that full bellies and the system of society we currently enjoy allows us to be different than every generation before this one? Take that soceity way, and modern man will shame its fathers in the level of depraveity we will sink to, just because we lost our supermarkets and air conditioning.

You are a mindless drone if you can not recognize this fact.

Science does not make you a better person, the fact that you do not have to worry about your next meal, and your mod cons makes you a better person.

Are you saying people would go around killing and raping and plundering and just being "mean" to each other, if we had no religion?
Seriously?
Would you want some more statistics?

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[Waratah]

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Here is the translation that your first showed:

5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

I have already proven you wrong about your a/s/k. I said I followed the instructions as stated by the scripture and I received no holy spirit.

It states all who asks will receive the holy spirit.

I asked for one night at least and still no holy spirit.

Why only one night you might ask? It states a time limit of one night(midnight until he gets up) because in the parable it states the only reason the friend will not get the loaves is that he is still in bed.


Let us just assume your right about such a thing as the holy spirit for the following.

Ask you will receive
Seek you will find
Knock you will open

To receive the holy spirit you must ask.(luke 11-13)

Ask+seek+knock = holy spirit correct
Ask+seek = holy spirit correct
Ask+knock= holy spirit correct
Ask = holy spirit correct
seek+knock = holy spirit incorrect
seek = holy spirit incorrect
knock = holy spirit incorrect

Do you understand the above?

Your problem is you see what is not there.

Here is a list of questions that you need to answer to have any chance to be able to say that you have to a/s/k to to receive the holy spirit.

In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?

Now I would like you now to show me where christ converts the asking into knocking?

How many asks does it take to equal a knock?

Please show me what will be found if I "seek"? No assumptions please.

Please show me what will be opened if I "knock"? No assumptions please.

---

Look I'm done this an arguement by ad nausium.

Bullshit. The only reason I have ever repeated arguments or questions was because you refused to reply to my post in this and other threads. If you actually answered my questions then this would have been over ages ago.

You have your contextual answers. Youre wanting to argue a contextual explaination Christ Himself gave. I'm not Him your arguement is with him and not me so again I'm done.
Maybe you can save this for him when you see him.

You stated that everyone could get proof of god via receiving the holy spirit. I read the relevant book chapter and verses and followed the instructions and no holy spirit. You said I did it wrong. No one else said that. My argument is with you.

Just know in your heart of hearts you did not A/S/K as outlined in Luke 11. If you stopped knocking before you received what you were asking and seeking after you did not follow the instructions.

Here is drich once again with his assertion. To make that valid you need to back it up with some evidence. If your faith is so strong you should be able to answer the following questions honestly and still say you believe in god. Go on it will not hurt.

In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?

Now I would like you now to show me where christ converts the asking into knocking?

How many asks does it take to equal a knock?

Please show me what will be found if I "seek"? No assumptions please.

Please show me what will be opened if I "knock"? No assumptions please.

[Brian37]

Science does not make you a better person,

Science is a tool, not a person, a SCIENTIST is a person, SCIENCE is a tool.

North Koreans use the tool of science too, to make their nuclear weapons.

Consciousness is a product of evolution, and Kim Jong Un is conscious too.

Our species is not a magical thing manufactured or invented by a God or gods. Our species has ALWAYS had the capability of doing BOTH good and bad, and none of it needs superstition to explain or a god to explain.

Why is it I hate Kim Jong Un and the Imams running Iran? Why is it I hate Stalin and the churches of the Dark Ages as well?

Because my morality is part of OUR evolution that favors compassion, whereas dictatorships be they state or theocracies BOTH are appeal to authority.

Your God concept as a character is an appeal to authority, just like a dictator. Good to you as long as you kiss his ass but will beat the shit out of you if you step out of line.

Was your god voted into office? Can we vote him out of office? Can we change his laws if we don't like them? Can we impeach him?

You worship a character, a fictional character, one that reflects the feudal kingships of those who concocted the myths of Abraham. There is no such thing as a "kind" dictator.

[Drich]

In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?

Now I would like you now to show me where christ converts the asking into knocking?

How many asks does it take to equal a knock?

Please show me what will be found if I "seek"? No assumptions please.

Please show me what will be opened if I "knock"? No assumptions please.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and will go against my better judgement here.
1.) how do I know this was a neighbor?
The time given in the story and the fact they did not have cars puts the 'friend' in close proximity to the seeker of the breads house. Not to mention this was said by Christ in the pervious chapter:

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
The fact that the man in the house help the man outside makes him a neighbor according to Christ which is the only definition that matters as we are speaking of Christianity.

Question the conversion of asking into knocking. To knock simple means to repeat the process, or to keep seeking and to keep asking. (Like you have done In Your hound dogging me)

Christ tells us to do this in: 9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.


How many asks equal a knock?
I refer back to the story. In the story the asking continued until the neighbor got what he wanted. This is Christ's example of a successful a/s/k campaign. Meaning you are to knock or repeat this process till you get what you are looking for.

What you get after a successful a/s/k campaign is the gift of the Holy Spirit. No guessing this is what Christ says:
13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

I honestly believe if you put this same effort towards a/s/k with in a very short time you would have a story to tell.

[Minimalist]