Gun control

[Doubting Thomas]

Read the whole article- it's worth your time. The reporters found that the number of deaths by gun are far underreported in national stats due to quirks in coroner's reports. It's an eye-opening piece of journalism.

I did read it, and wish that there was a nationwide standardized reporting of gun deaths, both for children and adults.

At any rate, even if the current stats were true, how heartless do you have to be to say, "Oh well, more kids die in car accidents/whatever than from guns." Yeah tell that to a mother grieving over the loss of her 3-year-old son.

[wwjs]

Um...I blame the scumbags who sell them by spreading fear to idiots.

Honestly, who do you think spreads more fear: Anti-gun groups (whatever you want to call them) or Pro-gun groups?

[Doubting Thomas]

What I don't understand is the mindset of "Criminals will have guns so we need guns to protect us from them." Rather than trying to take guns out of the hands of criminals (which if we'd have more effective background checks it help, but they oppose that as well), they think that it's better to arm everyone. So they're focused on winning a shootout rather than avoiding a shootout in the first place. Which leads to them bringing up ridiculous suggestions like making sure every teacher is armed.

[Zazzy]

RESPONSIBLE gun ownership is the key. I agree with those who have said guns should be safely stored if there are small children in the house. By age 7-8, it's time to start teaching them how to handle guns RESPONSIBLY. Guns should be put away when not in use and children should always be supervised when they are learning to shoot. Education, education, education.

Do you support laws to force people to take safety precautions if they have children? The people against this in the article claim that locking guns up makes it too difficult to get them in a moment of crisis. You thoughts?

Also, YOU may be responsible, but how do you know the adults in the houses your children play in are? Several parents in the article lost kids to guns in other people's houses. Doesn't this worry you as a parent?

And also, all the education in the world won't combat a teenager's depression. A family I know well lost their son when he shot himself- and no one knows why. He was as educated as possible, and these were very responsible parents. He had been moody, but not overly so- they just thought it was him being a teenager. They were going to go on a hunting trip over the weekend, and the boy asked his mother to get his gun out of the safe so he could clean it. She got him his unloaded gun and went to the kitchen to make lunch. He had stashed a few bullets, and he loaded it, went into the bathroom and shot himself in the head. He was 13. This was a boy who had responsibly hunted and killed many things with his very responsible parents. Some people might say that he would have done it anyway if he had no gun, but who can say? At least his mother wouldn't have had to see his brains in the shower.

And far more restrictive, stringent CCW regulations. I swear, anyone with enough box tops can get a CCW permit. It's outrageous. Comprehensive, thorough background checks for ALL guns sold should be a no-brainer.

What is CCW? And why do you think so many people object to this so strenuously, since I agree it's a no-brainer?

And personally, I have no problem with limiting magazine capacity or eliminating all fully automatic weapons. No responsible gun owner or hunter needs that stuff. If I can't hit it with 10 rounds, I've got no business anywhere near a gun in the first place.

Do most gun owners agree with you on this, do you think?

Conversely, I'd like to see non-gun people learn more about the subject before trying to talk about it.

Thanks for helping me learn.

---

I did read it, and wish that there was a nationwide standardized reporting of gun deaths, both for children and adults.

I hope that this article may start us down that road.

[kılıç_mehmet]

What I don't understand is the mindset of "Criminals will have guns so we need guns to protect us from them." Rather than trying to take guns out of the hands of criminals (which if we'd have more effective background checks it help, but they oppose that as well), they think that it's better to arm everyone. So they're focused on winning a shootout rather than avoiding a shootout in the first place. Which leads to them bringing up ridiculous suggestions like making sure every teacher is armed.

Why not disarm criminals while arming the law-abiding people?
That would be a better solution.

[Doubting Thomas]

I'm all for that, unfortunately you can't guarantee that only law-abiding people will have guns.

And even then, you can't guarantee that these same law-abiding people will keep their firearms out of the hands of their children.

[Raeven]

RESPONSIBLE gun ownership is the key. I agree with those who have said guns should be safely stored if there are small children in the house. By age 7-8, it's time to start teaching them how to handle guns RESPONSIBLY. Guns should be put away when not in use and children should always be supervised when they are learning to shoot. Education, education, education.

Do you support laws to force people to take safety precautions if they have children? The people against this in the article claim that locking guns up makes it too difficult to get them in a moment of crisis. You thoughts?

Also, YOU may be responsible, but how do you know the adults in the houses your children play in are? Several parents in the article lost kids to guns in other people's houses. Doesn't this worry you as a parent?

And also, all the education in the world won't combat a teenager's depression. A family I know well lost their son when he shot himself- and no one knows why. He was as educated as possible, and these were very responsible parents. He had been moody, but not overly so- they just thought it was him being a teenager. They were going to go on a hunting trip over the weekend, and the boy asked his mother to get his gun out of the safe so he could clean it. She got him his unloaded gun and went to the kitchen to make lunch. He had stashed a few bullets, and he loaded it, went into the bathroom and shot himself in the head. He was 13. This was a boy who had responsibly hunted and killed many things with his very responsible parents. Some people might say that he would have done it anyway if he had no gun, but who can say? At least his mother wouldn't have had to see his brains in the shower.

In answer to your questions, in order, best I can:

I think laws forcing people to take safety precautions if they have small children are effectively unenforceable. What's the point, if the only time you enforce them is after a child has died? So no, I don't really see the point. It's closing the barn door after the horse already took a powder, or more accurately, one of those things that sounds like a good idea but as a practical matter has fully no effect whatsoever.

I agree, too, that keeping guns under lock and key with their magazines/ammunition kept separately under lock and key, renders them mostly useless in moments of crisis. Mine are MUCH more available to hand, though cleared and ammunition kept separate from the gun (except in one instance). But I live alone and have no small children. If small children are coming to visit, all my guns are immediately locked away, and children are not permitted to roam my home unattended.

If I DID have small children, however, they would be taught from their earliest age that guns are not toys. All guns would be kept locked away and separate from ammunition. They would be taught to immediately bring an adult to an unattended gun if they ever came across one -- not to touch it under any circumstances. I DON'T know how other people secure or don't secure their guns. Before I let a child play at someone else's house, I would make it my business to know that.

To me, guns are tools, like any other. We spend lots of time teaching our children to not touch hot stoves, not stick their fingers in light sockets, look both ways before crossing the street. There are a million things that can kill children, and we do our best to teach them the dangers of all of them. One of the differences, I think, is the extent to which guns are fetishized in this country. Americans think guns are SEXY. It's horrible, and changing that perception should be a priority.

I agree, however, that all the education in the world won't address depression. I do see that as a separate issue. Yes, it's beyond unspeakable that your friends had to find their boy in such a way, and clearly he worked hard to obtain access to his weapon. You yourself said who could say if he would have taken his own life if the gun had not been made available to him -- and who can? Before you think me heartless, I will share that I lost one of my very best friends the same way less than two years ago. I had cautioned her partner to get their guns out of the house. Her partner didn't heed my warning, and my friend took her life with a gun, also. But I've also known people who took a swan dive off the Golden Gate Bridge, put a plastic bag over their head and secured it to their neck with duct tape and one who purposely overdosed on sedatives. Suicides happen. I don't reflexively blame the gun.

And far more restrictive, stringent CCW regulations. I swear, anyone with enough box tops can get a CCW permit. It's outrageous. Comprehensive, thorough background checks for ALL guns sold should be a no-brainer.

What is CCW? And why do you think so many people object to this so strenuously, since I agree it's a no-brainer?

CCW = Carrying a Concealed Weapon. It's shorthand for having a permit to do so.

As for why some object strenuously to background checks, I think there is a vocal faction among gun owners who equate having their guns to living in their own personal Western. ANYTHING that they see as an encroachment on their rights is to be bitched about and resisted. Most of the gun owners I know have no problem with thorough background checks. I view those who object to them with extreme suspicion -- and I always hope they don't have a gun.

And personally, I have no problem with limiting magazine capacity or eliminating all fully automatic weapons. No responsible gun owner or hunter needs that stuff. If I can't hit it with 10 rounds, I've got no business anywhere near a gun in the first place.

Do most gun owners agree with you on this, do you think?

Reasonable gun owners have no objection. The Posse comitatus crowd start to froth at the mouth at the very notion. I think there is an even split among gun owners on these issues. Personally, I see absolutely no purpose for magazines to hold more than 10 rounds except if you're a lazy ass who can't be bothered to reload or switch out your magazines -- or you're on a killing spree. Neither of these reasons holds any sway with me. Limit them. It's the weakest start to dialing back some of the macho crap that's on the market. Problem is, those things are already out there... and they last forever.

Conversely, I'd like to see non-gun people learn more about the subject before trying to talk about it.

Thanks for helping me learn.

Truly, I hope I am helping you do that. Guns are neither the penis extenders a lot of men seem to think they are (not an issue for me, I'm a woman), and they are not the essence of all evil, either. Again, they are tools -- no more and no less. As with all tools, there are right and wrong ways to use them, store them, maintain them. And those of us who have the privilege of using them need also to keep our skills with them well honed, meaning practice and comfort with the tool. I hate having to euthanize an animal or even eliminate a predator -- but I hate the idea of only wounding them worse.

[Zazzy]

I think laws forcing people to take safety precautions if they have small children are effectively unenforceable. What's the point, if the only time you enforce them is after a child has died? So no, I don't really see the point. It's closing the barn door after the horse already took a powder, or more accurately, one of those things that sounds like a good idea but as a practical matter has fully no effect whatsoever.

You're right.

One of the differences, I think, is the extent to which guns are fetishized in this country. Americans think guns are SEXY. It's horrible, and changing that perception should be a priority.

Yes- but how do you think that happens? Most people like shoot-em-ups, or those movies wouldn't be so popular. And based on the research in the article, little boys are nearly hopeless in this regard, which depresses me.

I don't reflexively blame the gun.

It's more complicated than that for me, and I think for you, too. It's blaming a whole culture that doesn't THINK about these things, or teach parents to think about them without getting hysterical.

As for why some object strenuously to background checks, I think there is a vocal faction among gun owners who equate having their guns to living in their own personal Western. ANYTHING that they see as an encroachment on their rights is to be bitched about and resisted. Most of the gun owners I know have no problem with thorough background checks. I view those who object to them with extreme suspicion -- and I always hope they don't have a gun.

Is this a minority or majority faction, IYO? And I'm pretty sure that those who shriek about it are the most likely to be armed- or is that my liberal gun-naive voice talking?

Reasonable gun owners have no objection. The Posse comitatus crowd start to froth at the mouth at the very notion.

But surely they see YOU as unreasonable, and you probably have a better grip on why that is than I do- and I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Truly, I hope I am helping you do that.

You are. I am genuinely thinking about what you have said and trying not to make the reflexive responses of someone who has never shot a gun. Which may or may not be working, but it's rare to find someone like you to discuss this with peacefully. I appreciate it.

[Raeven]

One of the differences, I think, is the extent to which guns are fetishized in this country. Americans think guns are SEXY. It's horrible, and changing that perception should be a priority.

Yes- but how do you think that happens? Most people like shoot-em-ups, or those movies wouldn't be so popular. And based on the research in the article, little boys are nearly hopeless in this regard, which depresses me.

<sigh...> I don't really know the answer to this. I mean, I remember playing cops and robbers with the neighborhood kids when I was little, and we all pretended we had guns and shot at everything in sight. But they were just our fingers, or some silly toy -- and we did know the difference. In my household, we grew up with loaded guns leaned in out-of-the-way corners. We knew not to touch them -- period.

Personally, I do think the cultural issue is huge. The roots of this dysfunction are deep in our history, having wrested our freedom from King George using lots of muskets. Unfortunately, the rather vague nature of the Second Amendment leaves a lot of wiggle room for gratuitous interpretation (a lot like the bible) in modern times.

And while we may dream of establishing a gun-free culture like that of the UK or Australia, I don't think that is possible here. It's too embedded. So... what are the alternatives? We've tackled big issues before with education, and I still believe it is the key. We made huge inroads into discouraging people from smoking by educating them as to the terrible dangers of it as well as making it socially uncomfortable. Might we do something similar with the gun culture? I think if it is approached in a reasonable way, there are gains to be made. Just a thought. It's a big problem, and the prongs of solution are multitude.

I don't reflexively blame the gun.

It's more complicated than that for me, and I think for you, too. It's blaming a whole culture that doesn't THINK about these things, or teach parents to think about them without getting hysterical.

I'd be interested to hear your further thoughts on this. I guess what I was trying to say is, I'm less concerned with the method chosen to facilitate a suicide than I am with the underlying reason why so many feel the need to kill themselves in the first place. But that's another whole discussion.

As for why some object strenuously to background checks, I think there is a vocal faction among gun owners who equate having their guns to living in their own personal Western. ANYTHING that they see as an encroachment on their rights is to be bitched about and resisted. Most of the gun owners I know have no problem with thorough background checks. I view those who object to them with extreme suspicion -- and I always hope they don't have a gun.

Is this a minority or majority faction, IYO? And I'm pretty sure that those who shriek about it are the most likely to be armed- or is that my liberal gun-naive voice talking?

As to your first question, I think it depends on where you live in the country. I think I'm in the majority, but the minority is vocal and very angry. The NRA has been woefully successful in convincing people that any restriction on their rights to own guns is a personal assault on their liberties. And no, it's not your "liberal gun-naive voice" talking. Those folks are most likely to be armed... as well as the ones who own assault-type weaponry, legal or otherwise, and a lot of it. Even if it was all made illegal tomorrow, you'd never get those folks to surrender those arms.

Reasonable gun owners have no objection. The Posse comitatus crowd start to froth at the mouth at the very notion.

But surely they see YOU as unreasonable, and you probably have a better grip on why that is than I do- and I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

They do see me, and others like me, as unreasonable. I'm continually surprised at how many people who happen to learn that I shoot automatically assume they know my politics. They couldn't be more wrong -- but I seldom disavow them of their mistake. It's interesting (and often disturbing) to learn what they really think. There are some really scary people out there with guns. And that said, there are many, many responsible, reasonable people out there with guns, too.

The knee-jerk resistance to background checks, etc., seems to come from a highly emotional place rather than one of reason. Hmmm... I wonder what organization has a vested interest in creating a highly charged, emotional issue out of gun control... hmmm... which, indeed?

Truly, I hope I am helping you do that.

You are. I am genuinely thinking about what you have said and trying not to make the reflexive responses of someone who has never shot a gun. Which may or may not be working, but it's rare to find someone like you to discuss this with peacefully. I appreciate it.

Thank you. In general, I support gun control and virtually all of what it hopes to accomplish. I do draw the line when anti-gun folks call for the elimination of all guns in all possible situations. Apart from it being purely wishful thinking, there are legitimate reasons to have them, as I have previously mentioned. I would hate to have to try and strangle a pig.

[Doubting Thomas]

<sigh...> I don't really know the answer to this. I mean, I remember playing cops and robbers with the neighborhood kids when I was little, and we all pretended we had guns and shot at everything in sight. But they were just our fingers, or some silly toy -- and we did know the difference. In my household, we grew up with loaded guns leaned in out-of-the-way corners. We knew not to touch them -- period.

I did as well, and knew not to play with real guns. I even had a BB gun as a child and knew not to just play with it because you really could shoot someone's eye out.

Unfortunately not everyone teaches their children how to be safe around guns, as evidenced by the stories we read. That's why I think it's imperative that if you're going to have guns in the house with children, you should always lock it in a safe and make sure your kids don't know the combination. I guarantee if you just keep it in your dresser drawer your kids will find it eventually.

I remember when I was a kid and at a neighbor's house, and one of the kids was going through the dresser drawers in his parent's bedroom. He showed us an object he found which turned out to be a dildo. Funny yes, but had it been a gun I'm sure he would have played with it.