Yahweh, the Devil, and Job

[Doubting Thomas]

Then he rips Job a new asshole for having the sensible reaction of figuring that god would explain why he had allowed such horrors to be visited upon him.

And think about what Job's reaction would be after hearing that all the horrible things he went through was because God was just trying to prove a point to Satan. I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty pissed, and that's the point where I'd renounce God.

I'm wondering if it wasn't the case that Job was just a really devout follower of God, but he was too stupid to realize that God was fucking him over.

[Dionysius]

Are you bat shit stupid?

It was God that brought Job up, not satan. It was God's hand (Job 2:10;Job 19:21) that afflicted Job, satan was just a means to an end.

Smarten up McFly.

Actually YOU are the one making yourself appear ignorant. It is satan who is the instigator of Jobs affliction.

Job 1:1
"In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil."

That is where the story starts and where it should end happily ever after.

But....

Enter satan. And at Job 2:3 we see that it is satan who tries to incite God against him to ruin him without any reason.

Job 2:3
"Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

Does God stretch out His hand to afflict Job?
No! It is satan who does so.
Naturally satan the gutless taunts God, baiting Him to afflict Job. (Verse 4)

But God doesn't fall for it and hence satan is denied the chance to blame the whole thing back on God when Job (rightly) contemplates what's going on. God clearly warns satan "...he is in your hands"

Read carefully. It is satan who afflicts Job.

Job 2:7
"So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head."

I'm going to state the facts one last time for the logic impaired:



1) God ask satan if he has considered Job.
2) Satan acknowledges that he has BUT can't test him because God protects him.
3) God removes his protection from Job.
4) Satan attacks Job.
5) Job is AFU whining like a stuck pig wondering why God allowed satan to attack him.
6) Job calls his wife a batty old whore when she tells him to give God the bird recounting the biblical fact that God causes evil and good to befall mankind.
7) God makes an appearance and tells Job he is a dumbass
8) Job is reconciled with God with greater abundance attributed to his testing - he understands now.
9) End of fairy tale.

[Tonus]

And think about what Job's reaction would be after hearing that all the horrible things he went through was because God was just trying to prove a point to Satan. I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty pissed, and that's the point where I'd renounce God.

I'd be terrified. Because it would mean that being "blameless and upright" and seeking god's approval and rejecting evil was no guarantee that god would not unleash Satan himself upon you. Being a true son of god would not protect you from his almighty wrath if you felt as if you deserved an answer for such horrific treatment. You may have been a good person and suffered terribly at the hand of god's worst enemy, but that didn't mean that you were worth more than any other filthy human slug.

In the story, god rewards Job with riches and ten children to replace those he lost, which makes me think two things. One, it doesn't seem all that easy to simply replace your sons and daughters with "new" ones. Two, if anyone had it worse than Job, it might have been his wife! But Job also gets to spend the rest of his days knowing that it doesn't matter that god rewarded him for his loyalty, because he had been a blameless and upright man before and it didn't count for anything. If god decided that it was time to wreck his life again, he would do so and there was nothing Job could do but grab his ankles and shut his eyes tight and keep repeating "thank you sir may I have another!"

[Dionysius]

Should Job or Christains for that matter expect anything less when the God they worship is a fire breathing dragon. Psalms 18:6-14

[themonkeyman]

Are you bat shit stupid?

No. My IQ is 145.

Lovely so you are an intelligent Idiot. -- Wait!

Does your bible not require you to think like a Child 'E.g. - Be Ignorant' of everything and everyone else and very self centred.

I think you are incompatable with your religion considering most people who started it were people who watched sheep day and night.

---

Actually YOU are the one making yourself appear ignorant. It is satan who is the instigator of Jobs affliction.

Job 1:1
"In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil."

That is where the story starts and where it should end happily ever after.

But....

Enter satan. And at Job 2:3 we see that it is satan who tries to incite God against him to ruin him without any reason.

Job 2:3
"Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

Does God stretch out His hand to afflict Job?
No! It is satan who does so.
Naturally satan the gutless taunts God, baiting Him to afflict Job. (Verse 4)

But God doesn't fall for it and hence satan is denied the chance to blame the whole thing back on God when Job (rightly) contemplates what's going on. God clearly warns satan "...he is in your hands"

Read carefully. It is satan who afflicts Job.

Job 2:7
"So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head."

I'm going to state the facts one last time for the logic impaired:



1) God ask satan if he has considered Job.
2) Satan acknowledges that he has BUT can't test him because God protects him.
3) God removes his protection from Job.
4) Satan attacks Job.
5) Job is AFU whining like a stuck pig wondering why God allowed satan to attack him.
6) Job calls his wife a batty old whore when she tells him to give God the bird recounting the biblical fact that God causes evil and good to befall mankind.
7) God makes an appearance and tells Job he is a dumbass
8) Job is reconciled with God with greater abundance attributed to his testing - he understands now.
9) End of fairy tale.

My Views

1) God and Satan seam to be rather like pals. It opens a view that Heaven can also contain 'Sinners' which surely is incompatible with God since heaven is supposed to be his dwelling place.

2) Interestingly they talk like everything is natural. Considering the fact that the Book of Job is the oldest book in the bible it opens for the view that it is literally a book of contrasting Light from Dark, What I mean is that perhaps this god is not YAHWEH.

Do I need to say more.

Lets take a look at the Message

6-7 One day when the angels came to report to God, Satan, who was the <b>Designated Accuser</b>, came along with them. God singled out Satan and said, “What have you been up to?” -<i>Note casualness</i>

Satan answered God, “Going here and there, checking things out on earth.” <i>Again very informal - No fear of the guy he tried to fight against </i>

8 God said to Satan, “Have you noticed my friend Job? There’s no one quite like him—honest and true to his word, <b>totally devoted to God</b> and hating evil.” <i>Err totally devoted to God, what God is God talking about why did he not say, Totally devoted to me?</i>

9-10 Satan retorted, “So do you think Job does all that out of the sheer goodness of his heart? Why, no one ever had it so good! You pamper him like a pet, make sure nothing bad ever happens to him or his family or his possessions, bless everything he does—he can’t lose!

11 “But what do you think would happen if <b>you reached down and took away everything that is his?</b> He’d curse you right to your face, that’s what.” <i>Again Satan presents this case for God to do the dirty work</i>

12 God replied, “<b>We’ll see. Go ahead—do what you want with all that is his. Just don’t hurt him.</b>” Then Satan left the presence of God. - <i> Again we see that God literally said to Satan do what you want!</i>

Kinda fucked here - Now for all the Christians here, This came from the Message which is technically Scripture, Please feel free to call it a lie but in doing so remember this is a Paraphrase of your own core belief.

[John V]

4) Satan attacks Job.

Strangely, you include something like this in every summary you give, yet fail to comprehend it.

[Mystical]

Strangely, you include something like this in every summary you give, yet fail to comprehend it.

Strangely you seem to rather commentate on this fact rather than correct said misunderstanding
Why are you even here if not to do that very thing?

[Faith No More]

4) Satan attacks Job.

Strangely, you include something like this in every summary you give, yet fail to comprehend it.

And strangely, you fail to comprehend that Satan only does this after getting the go-ahead from God. Without God's complicity in the situation, Satan could not have harmed a hair on Job's head, but God was so desperate to prove a point that he allowed Satan to slaughter his family.

So, while Satan may have done the actual harming, God is equally responsible. If a man allows a pedophile to rape his daughter, he can't then turn around and say, "But it wasn't me" as a defense. Your attempts to get your god off the hook are forlorn.

[T.J.]

No one is disputing Satan performed the attack. The point being made is that God allowed it in direct communications with Satan rather than just Satan attacking Job with no previous contact with God being involved.

Edit: Faith No More beat me to it.

[John V]

No one is disputing Satan performed the attack. The point being made is that God allowed it in direct communications with Satan rather than just Satan attacking Job with no previous contact with God being involved.

The point to which I'm responding is:

a close inspection of the texts proves that God (himself ?) is the antagonist and satan is merely the goto guy to get the dirty deeds done.

This is incorrect. Hurting Job was Satan's idea, and Satan performed the actions. Yes, god allows it, but it's false to say that god was the antagonist and Satan "merely the goto guy."

---

And strangely, you fail to comprehend that Satan only does this after getting the go-ahead from God. Without God's complicity in the situation, Satan could not have harmed a hair on Job's head, but God was so desperate to prove a point that he allowed Satan to slaughter his family.

So, while Satan may have done the actual harming, God is equally responsible. If a man allows a pedophile to rape his daughter, he can't then turn around and say, "But it wasn't me" as a defense. Your attempts to get your god off the hook are forlorn.

You haven't even seen my attempts to get god "off the hook" in this thread, although I've probably done it before here, as it's a popular topic. So far for my part of the discussion it's been about Satan's role.