I see no way this could ever backfire!

[Drich]

There is no debate that there needs to be a change, what I am arguing is that this doesn't call for Christianity or any religion for that matter.

What you can't seem to wrap your head around is that North Korea has been under theocratic rule for over 100 years. In this case it quite literally means that a 'god' (in one form or another) has literally been ruling their country for over 100 years.

They know nothing other than being subservient to a deity. You can not have 4 or 5 generations of devotion like this and go cold turkey. Not even just cold turkey, but going from worship god/Kim family to ousting them. The reason they fear him and follow him is because who can oppose a god?

Air dropping bibles and proselytizing to these people isn't going to help anything. In fact it will make things worse for them. How is that so hard to understand?

Your not a history major are you?
Maybe look up world history and how religion has influenced it. This is a very old problem, with a tried and true solution.

I personally don't have a way to help them nor a viable idea but that's why I keep my damn nose out of it instead of sending them religious material that will get them fucking murdered.

Your a tard if you think these people are only getting murder for their beliefs.

Will they still be subjected to horrible conditions, and torturous death? Indeed. Will sending them bibles that will have them killed in the streets or have three generations of their family imprisoned do anything to solve it? No it won't.

Again the history of civilzation says otherwise. like it or not the worship or right to worship a given deity has spawned wars, revolutions and established countries... hmm If only there were some large nation/example in the west was established/embolden to through off their oppressors chains to worship the way they wanted too, so as to prove my point.

---

Secular open state, free of low lifes like you.

and you 'think' that will work in N/K why?

---

that is the awesome thing about Christianity. There is no one 'right way.' All one needs is a love for Jesus Christ that centers their worship and Grace covers the Rest.

You mean like the mormons

Wait for it..................here it comes............


.

Mormons center their belief on the book of mormon and not christ.

If the book of Mormon and the recorded words of Christ were to ever conflict the book of mormon would prevail for the mormon. Which means their worship is not Christ centered. It is book of mormon centered. Which means by defination and their actions they are not 'christian' as their worship does not center around Christ.

[Mister Agenda]

Unless a significant portion of the military is turned, a key portion of most revolutions. The starvation could be alleviated substantially by lifting economic sanctions.

Unfortunately the military is among the first fed, so it's unlikely they'll turn against the government. Kim Jong Il was no idiot, he knew that in order to keep a loyal military he had to keep their bread buttered.

Every dictator knows that, yet some soldiers still throw in with the revolutionaries. There's an ironic phenomenon where people who are the most deprived will tolerate the most oppression which may partly account for it. Who has time to think about revolution when they're starving?

[Anomalocaris]

Patriotism and love of freedom does not trump the knowledge of which side of your bread is buttered on. Soldiers in North Korea is amongst the most privileged classes besides high officialdom. Soldiers in a privileged position in a autocrasy don't tend to throw in with the revolutionaries except:


1. Their country have been heavily defeated in a war which their autocrat is not smart enough to end, so the soldiers revoluted to avoid becoming cannon fodder to a clearly lost cause

2. They were ordered to do so by their generals in a coup disguised as a revolution.

3. The revolutionaries have already come close to winning and the soldiers can see which way the wind is blowing.

To count on a previleged military to become a prime mover in a revolution to end the source of their privilege is folly.

The most likely way by which the Kim regime would end would be through a military coup. The leader of the coup is unlikely to be a liberal democrat at heart. What would most likely happen is North Korea would transition from pseudo-theocratic Kimsian hell to the purgatory of a military junta led banana republic, something like Berma before the recent half hearted thaw.

[Lemonvariable72]

Drich I don't understand why you think him can't use the bible to give his regime devine mandate. There are have dozens of fake messiahs in privileged nations with free access to a bible. Also what's to stop him from claiming this as anti patriotic material and using it as a pretext

[Mister Agenda]

The most likely way by which the Kim regime would end would be through a military coup. The leader of the coup is unlikely to be a liberal democrat at heart. What would most likely happen is North Korea would transition from pseudo-theocratic Kimsian hell to the purgatory of a military junta led banana republic, something like Berma before the recent half hearted thaw.

And very sadly, that would probably be a great improvement.

[Anomalocaris]

Drich I don't understand why you think him can't use the bible to give his regime devine mandate. There are have dozens of fake messiahs in privileged nations with free access to a bible. Also what's to stop him from claiming this as anti patriotic material and using it as a pretext

I think it has more to do with his maniacal view of christianity and his own role in it than any view of realities on the ground.

[Lemonvariable72]

Drich I don't understand why you think him can't use the bible to give his regime devine mandate. There are have dozens of fake messiahs in privileged nations with free access to a bible. Also what's to stop him from claiming this as anti patriotic material and using it as a pretext

I think it has more to do with his maniacal view of christianity and his own role in it than any view of realities on the ground.

Even Christians should know the Bible can be easily twisted take the Catholic church for instance, the idea of a pope has little biblical bases but yet a huge number of Christians that have free access to the Bible think he is god's representative on earth. Just the fact there are over 30000 denominations should show you the bible is anything but clear.
Also drich you assume they won't dismiss it out of hand like you would a Quran, and there is no reason to think that.

[Anomalocaris]

I think it has more to do with his maniacal view of christianity and his own role in it than any view of realities on the ground.

Even Christians should know the Bible can be easily twisted take the Catholic church for instance, the idea of a pope has little biblical bases but yet a huge number of Christians that have free access to the Bible think he is god's representative on earth. Just the fact there are over 30000 denominations should show you the bible is anything but clear.
Also drich you assume they won't dismiss it out of hand like you would a Quran, and there is no reason to think that.

Christianity's goal is to infect people. It would be great if they were infected with the right strain of virus. But the important thing is to get them infected with something even if the right symptoms do not at first appear. How many Christian luminaries have cozied up with genocidal dictators and turned blind eye on the victims so long as lip service is paid to their "christ"? Drich and his ilk could spare me their disingenuous bleating about Kim's control and oppression. He would applaud the control and the oppression if they were just as murderous but done in the name of Jesus.

[Esquilax]

I think the story is propaganda to 'explain' if/where the bibles came from that maybe showing up in N/K.

This is to divert attention from an active/on going supply line or continous effort.

You can think whatever you want, but until you provide evidence, as always, your opinions are moot.

All major communists take overs begin this way. That is why in the 50 and 60's being labled a communist or a commie propergandist was such a career ending stigma to anyone in the US especially those in the media or movies of that era.

Yeah, begin that way. But I guarantee you that wasn't all that happened, and it's funny you completely ignore every other stage of the process. Besides, I was asking about a political change from an already oppressive regime, and you gave me something else entirely.

I did not miss the point, i acknoweledge it and made the assertion that these people for the last 100 years have only known theocratic rule. That being the case the only way to topple a 'god' in the hearts and minds of a brain washed people, is to show that their 'god/leader' to be a false God. They have to come to this on their own.

And the best way to do that is to show them another false god. Got it.

If you try and introduce the ideas of self worship that you all have adopted for yourselves it will be quickly identified as western propaganda, and dismissed without another thought. If you push this idea of self worship then they will simply dig in deeper.

Do you even have a method of dialling down on your smugness?

The only way to topple the hold the Kim's have on N/K is to introduce them to the freedom the God of the bible offers, as worship of a god is all they know. They will not simply drop 100 years of tradition for the sake of being like you. That idea scares them as much as the idea of you being forced to do and think as they do.

And yet you seem to think they'll do it to be like their hated enemies, the Americans. Yep, seems totally logical.

I don't know if your aware or not, but South Korea's primary Religion is Christianity. The Christian efforts to win the Hearts and minds of the N/Ks undoubtedly have to be coordinated with the koreans who live in the south. even if americans sponsor this effort it does not make sense to send them english bibles.

Who said anything about english bibles? I'm saying that these people are bombarded with propaganda and paranoia day in and day out, told to distrust the outside world, told to hate anything forbidden, including christianity. And yet you think that a bible, entirely without context, and with an attached missive purporting to be from a literal traitor to their nation, is going to be received with an open mind. Why do you think that?

Tell you what: you're a brainwashed drone, Drich, why don't you tell us your experience? If I were to throw a Koran at your head, would you pick it up, read it and convert, or would your years of indoctrination cause you to unthinkingly dismiss it?

I absolutly love it when you guys say that I need to 'think more.' It usally means that with in one or two more posts you will jump the shark (deviate from the orginal topic) and start in with the personal insults.

Only when they're warranted, Drich. Only when they're warranted.

[Bob Kelso]

What you can't seem to wrap your head around is that North Korea has been under theocratic rule for over 100 years. In this case it quite literally means that a 'god' (in one form or another) has literally been ruling their country for over 100 years.

They know nothing other than being subservient to a deity. You can not have 4 or 5 generations of devotion like this and go cold turkey. Not even just cold turkey, but going from worship god/Kim family to ousting them. The reason they fear him and follow him is because who can oppose a god?

I know full and well what theocratic rule is Drich. What makes you think your religion is going to help this issue?

Your not a history major are you?

Irrelevant, you're not an English major are you?

Maybe look up world history and how religion has influenced it. This is a very old problem, with a tried and true solution.

I know full and well how the world has been affected by religion and let me tell you it doesn't do your religion any favors to remind people of it's past.

Tried and true huh? Yeah I suppose religion at the point of a sword has worked in the past there for Christianity Drich. Hard to think or act for yourself when you'll be killed for it.

Oh... That sounds familiar... Almost sounds like... Nah, couldn't be.

Anyway;

You got a point that pertains to this situation in particular?

Your a tard if you think these people are only getting murder for their beliefs.

You're a tard if you think that I'm unaware of the fact that there are plenty of other terrible reasons these people are being murdered for. This is a debate over whether your religion is helping the matter. Here's a hint; it's not.

Again the history of civilzation says otherwise. like it or not the worship or right to worship a given deity has spawned wars, revolutions and established countries...:thinking: hmm If only there were some large nation/example in the west was established/embolden to through off their oppressors chains to worship the way they wanted too, so as to prove my point.

Again, giving me reminders to the history of religions affects upon history will leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. Without religion these wars and revolutions would never have been necessary.

Almost makes it seem like the world would be a better place without religion now doesn't it?

:thinking:

Again, tell me how your religion will help with the effort other than a small amount of dissidence and more deaths.