The mind answers the prayers that are answerable by the mind. The rest is mumbo-jumbo!
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Prayer does not work
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RE: Prayer does not work
November 19, 2013 at 1:02 am
(This post was last modified: November 19, 2013 at 1:02 am by Darkstar.)
(November 18, 2013 at 11:50 am)max-greece Wrote: It is inherent in the testing (as it always is in medicine) that in order to evaluate whether a given treatment "works" it has to outperform a placebo. Anything that hasn't performed better (or as in the case of prayer actually worse) than the placebo has not worked.This. Also, this placebo effect only works for the prayer (that is, the one praying). If a million people prayed for that person in secret, it would not even have a placebo effect. At this point, arguing that prayer technically sorta kinda "works" is just avoiding the real issue. Even granting the placebo effect, it doesn't work in any way even vaguely close to the manner most Christians seem to think it does, or the way the Bible suggests it should. John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. (November 19, 2013 at 1:02 am)Darkstar Wrote:Yeah I'd agree with that.(November 18, 2013 at 11:50 am)max-greece Wrote: It is inherent in the testing (as it always is in medicine) that in order to evaluate whether a given treatment "works" it has to outperform a placebo. Anything that hasn't performed better (or as in the case of prayer actually worse) than the placebo has not worked.This.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken." Sith code
However the fact remains that under some circumstances prayer DOES work. Maybe not in the way some people believe, but in certain circumstances it can have the desired effect.
I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing in Principle, just on the wording.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken." Sith code
I guess, if you mean praying as others might say meditating. Bottom line you cool down, to think about your troubles, better chance of doing a better decision. Still, no gods needed.
RE: Prayer does not work
November 19, 2013 at 7:02 am
(This post was last modified: November 19, 2013 at 7:03 am by Jacob(smooth).)
(November 18, 2013 at 7:01 pm)Minimalist Wrote:Quote:Just gave you one. Bereaved person. Not exactly, more the immediate comfort aspect. Is it miraculous? No. Is it valid? Yes. Is it better than a secular hug? I don't know. Does that person feel better because they are deceived into thinking their loved one is with the giant sky Daddy and that gives them a sense of connection? Very possibly. Does brainwashing "work"? Of course it does. As I've said before, HOW it works is a different debate to DOES it work. I'm just saying that sometimes, prayer does achieve the desired effect. (November 19, 2013 at 7:02 am)LastPoet Wrote: I guess, if you mean praying as others might say meditating. Bottom line you cool down, to think about your troubles, better chance of doing a better decision. Still, no gods needed.Can be done that way certainly. And no, God not necessarily needed.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken." Sith code (November 19, 2013 at 6:55 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: However the fact remains that under some circumstances prayer DOES work. Maybe not in the way some people believe, but in certain circumstances it can have the desired effect. Care to elaborate? I could see a gambler describing luck in much the same way. (November 19, 2013 at 7:06 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote:Not sure I can be any more specific or explain this other than I have.(November 19, 2013 at 6:55 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: However the fact remains that under some circumstances prayer DOES work. Maybe not in the way some people believe, but in certain circumstances it can have the desired effect. If I want to make someone feel better, I might give them a hug. They feel better, the hug worked. If I want to make a Christian feel better I might pray with them. They feel better, the prayer worked. Thus, because there are circumstances where the prayer can have the desired effect, (work) it's untrue to say prayer does not work.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken." Sith code RE: Prayer does not work
November 19, 2013 at 9:39 am
(This post was last modified: November 19, 2013 at 9:39 am by Tonus.)
(November 19, 2013 at 9:31 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: If I want to make someone feel better, I might give them a hug. They feel better, the hug worked.This gets into tricky territory, though. If prayer works in the same way that a hug would, or a comforting talk would, or a helping hand would, then it isn't prayer that works; it is human empathy or sympathy put into action. In other words, if you visit the bereaved person and say a prayer with her the positive effect may not be from the prayer, but from the companionship and the resulting feeling that she is not alone.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
psychology works...
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