Prayer does not work

[The Reality Salesman01]

The mind answers the prayers that are answerable by the mind. The rest is mumbo-jumbo!

[Darkstar]

It is inherent in the testing (as it always is in medicine) that in order to evaluate whether a given treatment "works" it has to outperform a placebo. Anything that hasn't performed better (or as in the case of prayer actually worse) than the placebo has not worked.

So, for example, a pain tablet that produces the same results as a placebo is deemed to have failed - or not to have worked.

So again I repeat - you are playing with the definition of "work" to include the placebo effect.

This.

Also, this placebo effect only works for the prayer (that is, the one praying). If a million people prayed for that person in secret, it would not even have a placebo effect. At this point, arguing that prayer technically sorta kinda "works" is just avoiding the real issue. Even granting the placebo effect, it doesn't work in any way even vaguely close to the manner most Christians seem to think it does, or the way the Bible suggests it should.

[Jacob(smooth)]

It is inherent in the testing (as it always is in medicine) that in order to evaluate whether a given treatment "works" it has to outperform a placebo. Anything that hasn't performed better (or as in the case of prayer actually worse) than the placebo has not worked.

So, for example, a pain tablet that produces the same results as a placebo is deemed to have failed - or not to have worked.

So again I repeat - you are playing with the definition of "work" to include the placebo effect.

This.

Also, this placebo effect only works for the prayer (that is, the one praying). If a million people prayed for that person in secret, it would not even have a placebo effect. At this point, arguing that prayer technically sorta kinda "works" is just avoiding the real issue. Even granting the placebo effect, it doesn't work in any way even vaguely close to the manner most Christians seem to think it does, or the way the Bible suggests it should.

Yeah I'd agree with that.

[Jacob(smooth)]

However the fact remains that under some circumstances prayer DOES work. Maybe not in the way some people believe, but in certain circumstances it can have the desired effect.

I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing in Principle, just on the wording.

[LastPoet]

I guess, if you mean praying as others might say meditating. Bottom line you cool down, to think about your troubles, better chance of doing a better decision. Still, no gods needed.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Just gave you one. Bereaved person.

What are you praying for? Their loved one to come back to life? Or that they get over their grief...which will happen in any case as time passes. I guess that's a safe "prayer?" Sort of like praying that the sun comes up in the morning.

Not exactly, more the immediate comfort aspect. Is it miraculous? No. Is it valid? Yes. Is it better than a secular hug? I don't know. Does that person feel better because they are deceived into thinking their loved one is with the giant sky Daddy and that gives them a sense of connection? Very possibly.

Does brainwashing "work"? Of course it does. As I've said before, HOW it works is a different debate to DOES it work.

I'm just saying that sometimes, prayer does achieve the desired effect.

---

I guess, if you mean praying as others might say meditating. Bottom line you cool down, to think about your troubles, better chance of doing a better decision. Still, no gods needed.

Can be done that way certainly. And no, God not necessarily needed.

[Captain Colostomy]

However the fact remains that under some circumstances prayer DOES work. Maybe not in the way some people believe, but in certain circumstances it can have the desired effect.

Care to elaborate? I could see a gambler describing luck in much the same way.

[Jacob(smooth)]

However the fact remains that under some circumstances prayer DOES work. Maybe not in the way some people believe, but in certain circumstances it can have the desired effect.

Care to elaborate? I could see a gambler describing luck in much the same way.

Not sure I can be any more specific or explain this other than I have.

If I want to make someone feel better, I might give them a hug. They feel better, the hug worked.

If I want to make a Christian feel better I might pray with them. They feel better, the prayer worked.

Thus, because there are circumstances where the prayer can have the desired effect, (work) it's untrue to say prayer does not work.

[Tonus]

If I want to make someone feel better, I might give them a hug. They feel better, the hug worked.

If I want to make a Christian feel better I might pray with them. They feel better, the prayer worked.

Thus, because there are circumstances where the prayer can have the desired effect, (work) it's untrue to say prayer does not work.

This gets into tricky territory, though. If prayer works in the same way that a hug would, or a comforting talk would, or a helping hand would, then it isn't prayer that works; it is human empathy or sympathy put into action. In other words, if you visit the bereaved person and say a prayer with her the positive effect may not be from the prayer, but from the companionship and the resulting feeling that she is not alone.

[pocaracas]

psychology works...