"The bible test" Answered.

[Bad Writer]

Drich, Joseph Smith isn't my prophet; he's just the example used in my premise. I know he failed, and that's because he was obviously delusional. Whether or not he was seeking the Holy Ghost is not the issue; he presupposed god and Christ, which means he presupposed the Holy Ghost as well. In fact, he was probably expecting the answer to his question to be led in some form by the Holy Ghost, which is reasonable seeing as his family believed in the Bible and taught their children the principles and doctrines found within it. Who could have predicted that his mind would actually come up with a vision of god and Jesus? We still aren't quite sure what happens in YOUR mind when you kneel down to pray for the Holy Ghost.

It all boils down to presupposition, which is what someone does when performing A.S.K. You have to first believe there is a Holy Ghost before you can expect an answer from it. Kids freaking themselves out in front of a mirror in a pitch black room while playing the "Bloody Mary" game first need to believe that her ghost is a real thing. The difference between you and those kids, Drich, is that they eventually grow out of such a superstition while you continue at it, thinking there's still an invisible Holy Ghost giving you direction in life.

[xpastor]

You do know in Mark 16 where this passage is found, Jesus is speaking to just 11 people right?

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

No where in this passage Does Christ say "to all that believe will be able to do these things." That is what you are implying this passage says.

Is english your first language?

As usual, Drich, you prove that you can't read. Mark 16 KJV says

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

them that believe = all who believe
NIV translates "those who believe" and GNT simply "believers"

If you want to cop out on drinking cyanide and playing with snakes, you will have to go with the argument that Mark 16:9-20 is a spurious addition to the bible as it is not found in the earliest manuscripts.

How long has it been since you started to learn English?

[WesOlsen]

Never really answer Drich why you think god chosen to suspend the laws of nature on a regular basis (presumably effecting others and perhaps leaving them in a disadvantaged position so that you can benefit) in your cushty first world living environment whilst he rewards others (who sought truth desperately and gave up time and money for the christian god) with cholera, famine, gang rape and ethnic cleansing? Testimony bias is a cop out mate, even though it's peddled by hundreds of thousands of individuals from rival denominations and used as 'evidence' for a personal jesus bodyguard. Defy the laws of nature with the help of your interstellar baby sitter and we'll consider taking you seriously. Throw yourself off a bridge or drink some poison, see what happens.

[Drich]

[quote='Drich' pid='566319' dateline='1387465366']
Did you read my explaination for the reason we are to knock?

If your goal is to complete a 1000 peice puzzle and you work on it for 3 days, but do not finish, is the puzzle picture complete? "Do you see a problem with that?" Of course not, why? because you did not finish the puzzle no matter how many days you worked on it. what will it take to finish the picture? is there a certain amount of time all should be complete? no, it takes what it takes. some may get the picture sooner than others, but in the end if you quit before the puzzle is complete then your picture will be incomplete no matter how much time you worked on it.

Like wise how many day can one put on building a bridge between themselves and God? If you do not finish this bridge will you be able to cross it? no. When can one cross a bridge? When the gap is completely span. How long will this take? How big is the gap between you and God? The larger the gap the longer this process will take. So who can say he has spent enough time on their 'bridge' if the bridge is not complete?

That's what I said: the whole framing is conducive to never, ever failing. It's a dishonest tactic:

That is not what I said. Because I know the medthod in which God answers A/S/K, is not by giving us what we expect. Why? Because we ALL have a bad understanding of God, and if God were to give us what we are looking for in the way we are looking for it, it would only reinforce our misunderstanding of God. God does not want us to have this dark ages understanding of Him.

A/S/K has the ask'er first let go of what he understands and over time and experience through good times and bad coupled with an earnest seeking of God helps the 'asker' build an accurate picture of God, in doing so somewhere in this process the 'asker' becomes aware of the Holy Spirit.

if a person follows your lead and never gets there, their choices are either to stop, whereupon you have the excuse that they hadn't continued and therefore they were doing it wrong, or they keep doing it until they die, whereupon they're hardly likely to complain and damage your credibility, are they?

"there" is not a light switch. we are not 'there' or not. "there" in this context is an awareness and ablity to access and interact with God. At first we are given 'spiritual fruit.' which amount to the ablity to express these attributes of the Holy Spirit beyond our normal ablity to want to express these attributes. If we are faithful to this ablity we are given more. As long as we are faithful to what we are given what we are given will increase till we obtain spiritual gifts, from these gifts if we remain faithful , we are given more. At some point from the beginning and the receiving of these gifts there is an acute awareness of God. It is at that point you know you can fall back with your eyes closed and He will catch you so to speak. During this process the more you seek the more you get and the more you are responsiable for. That is why after 20 years I still A/S/K. Not because I haven't found God.

You've set up an entirely dishonest system here that has no failure state, whether or not it succeeds. It is, top to bottom, confirmation bias.

I havn't set up anything. I am only point to how Christ said how awareness of God takes place. I don't get to pick and choose how this works. i can only tell you that it does, and how to go about doing it.

---

Drich, Joseph Smith isn't my prophet; he's just the example used in my premise. I know he failed, and that's because he was obviously delusional. Whether or not he was seeking the Holy Ghost is not the issue;

Actually it is the Whole issue because A/S/K refers to Asking Seeking and Knocking for the Holy Spirit as Christ instructs us to do in Luke 11.

he presupposed god and Christ, which means he presupposed the Holy Ghost as well.

The mormons do believe in the Holy Spirit. So if joey wanted to include the H/S He would have.

In fact, he was probably expecting the answer to his question to be led in some form by the Holy Ghost, which is reasonable seeing as his family believed in the Bible and taught their children the principles and doctrines found within it.

No I have read articals on this specifically saying he got directions from the Father and the Son. They believe that the Father and Son were once people, who asended into ultimate authority and hold all power. The H/S is more of a messenger, an intity who carries out the will of the Father and Son. So by sighting the Father and Son Joey was claiming authority from the seat of power.

Who could have predicted that his mind would actually come up with a vision of god and Jesus?

He came up with the Father and Son because that was his understanding of how the God head works. which is contary to the bible.

Because of this we know He did not A/S/K as outlined in Luke 11 because He sought an audience with the Father and Son directly which is why He produced them, and not the Spirit.

[Esquilax]

So Drich, your response is to handwave mercilessly, and change the definition of A/S/K yet again so that there's no one definite success condition either?

What has this process become? "Ask, See, Knock, and something will happen. Could be anything. And if you ever stop, you weren't doing it right."

How does one test that prospect, Drich? In what way is that falsifiable?

[Drich]

You do know in Mark 16 where this passage is found, Jesus is speaking to just 11 people right?

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

No where in this passage Does Christ say "to all that believe will be able to do these things." That is what you are implying this passage says.

Is english your first language?

As usual, Drich, you prove that you can't read. Mark 16 KJV says

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

them that believe = all who believe
NIV translates "those who believe" and GNT simply "believers"

If you want to cop out on drinking cyanide and playing with snakes, you will have to go with the argument that Mark 16:9-20 is a spurious addition to the bible as it is not found in the earliest manuscripts.

How long has it been since you started to learn English?

good thing the bible was not written in english then huh?
Or did they not teach you that in your seminary?

From these 5 koine words we translate And these signs shall follow them that believe

δέ de= a universal conjunction like: But, and, moreover

ταῦτα tauta= Literally translates to 'these'

σημεῖον sēmeion= Mirical, signs, wonders

παρακολουθέω parakoloutheō= To follow faithfully

πιστεύω pisteuō=
to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

of the thing believed

to credit, have confidence

in a moral or religious reference

used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

to be intrusted with a thing

Note in this defination it says nothing to indicate everyone who qualifies as a believer. It basically translates to belief.

Which gives us: "And these signs will follow belief." So the question is belief of whom? The translation assumes those who believe and are baptized. which is textually possiable. But, History does not support this text. Therfore we must look to the beginning of this passage to whom else Jesus was speaking to/of.. We find the 11 remaining apstoles. and a their rebuke of their unbelief of His resurection even though He was with him. History does show these men to have done the things Jesus mentions here.

therefore from the vantage point of looking back with 20/20 vision we can see the meaning of this passage.

[Ksa]

Speaking of light switches, you're saying that God died, if the light of God was extinguished, who ran this Universe? The light that we see coming from the Sun, if God died, what happened to all your switches, what can you do with those? You still don't get how stupid that story is right? If God is uncreated, how can God die? Do you know the definition of death? Death is when a created being dies.

[xpastor]

therefore from the vantage point of looking back with 20/20 vision we can see the meaning of this passage.

therefore from the vantage point of reading your bullshit we can see that you will never admit to making a mistake no matter how obvious it is.

You can't even write grammatical English, and you expect me to believe that you are competent to analyze the niceties of a Greek text.

Not hard to guess your favorite song: Oooh, Loorrd, it's harrd ta be humbul when yore purrfekt in evry waaay.
[spelling adapted to reflect Drich's system of orthography]

[Bad Writer]

Drich, Joseph Smith isn't my prophet; he's just the example used in my premise. I know he failed, and that's because he was obviously delusional. Whether or not he was seeking the Holy Ghost is not the issue;

Actually it is the Whole issue because A/S/K refers to Asking Seeking and Knocking for the Holy Spirit as Christ instructs us to do in Luke 11.

he presupposed god and Christ, which means he presupposed the Holy Ghost as well.

The mormons do believe in the Holy Spirit. So if joey wanted to include the H/S He would have.

In fact, he was probably expecting the answer to his question to be led in some form by the Holy Ghost, which is reasonable seeing as his family believed in the Bible and taught their children the principles and doctrines found within it.

No I have read articals on this specifically saying he got directions from the Father and the Son. They believe that the Father and Son were once people, who asended into ultimate authority and hold all power. The H/S is more of a messenger, an intity who carries out the will of the Father and Son. So by sighting the Father and Son Joey was claiming authority from the seat of power.

Who could have predicted that his mind would actually come up with a vision of god and Jesus?

He came up with the Father and Son because that was his understanding of how the God head works. which is contary to the bible.

Because of this we know He did not A/S/K as outlined in Luke 11 because He sought an audience with the Father and Son directly which is why He produced them, and not the Spirit.

Oh, so when you pray to invoke the H/S, do you pray to said Holy Ghost or do you petition your god for this guidance? Saying he was invoking the father and son is actually misrepresenting the entire story, but I see some bias on your part from preconceived notions that need to be cleared up.

You're getting your Joseph Smith timeline messed up a bit as well. It matters not what Mormons nowadays believe about god, but rather the Christian mind frames of J.S. Jr.'s family during the time that he asked god for guidance in the forest. Think about it; do you really think that 14 year old boy actually thought god was once a man at that point? Do you think he didn't share the same beliefs about gifts of the Holy Ghost that other Xtians at that time did? You are wrong in your assumptions about this premise, and that's no fault of your own. If you need me to clarify anything else about the pre-Mormon Church and how that applies to your A.S.K. model, then let me know.

[Drich]

Never really answer Drich why you think god chosen to suspend the laws of nature on a regular basis.

How do you know that He did?
Surly you have seen a star trek episode where a primitive race of people witnessed the technology of the federation and thought it to be God like. (the start of this last movie is a good example)
When in fact the people of the federation were not using magic to bend suspend or side step the laws of nature, they had equipment that manipulated those laws producing a miraculous effect. Miraculous to a people who did not understand the science of what they were witnessing.

now, with that in mind Why would the God of creation create everything in the known universe (including what we have deemed the 'laws of nature') just to side step suspend the Laws of nature everytime He wants something done?

Isn't it far more plausiable that He created everything with in the scope of His will and power to simply play out how He was things to happen? even if that means empowering a few with the ablity to access and use these laws to produce what would appear to be a miracle to those who do not fully understand what was going on?

If man uses Technology to manipulate the laws of nature is it magic? If God uses what ever God uses to manipulate the Laws of nature is it Magic? No, For some it is just the unknown.

Mircales are not in the unexplained execution of an act. a mircale is God doing whatever, however to accomplish whatever His end goal is. whether it be a known/explainable process or not. What makes a mircale a mircale is not how the Hand of God moves to accomplish a goal, but that it moved.

(presumably effecting others and perhaps leaving them in a disadvantaged position so that you can benefit) in your cushty first world living environment whilst he rewards others (who sought truth desperately and gave up time and money for the christian god) with cholera, famine, gang rape and ethnic cleansing?

Again why do you assume the negitive items on your list were not easier ways to find God? It is in the time of great comfort that people forget God. It is when we go through chrushing trials that God is easily found. (It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter Heaven.)

Testimony bias is a cop out mate, even though it's peddled by hundreds of thousands of individuals from rival denominations and used as 'evidence' for a personal jesus bodyguard. Defy the laws of nature with the help of your interstellar baby sitter and we'll consider taking you seriously. Throw yourself off a bridge or drink some poison, see what happens.

...And what if God does not want you to have this understanding of how He works? (That He must defy the laws of nature to work) Wouldn't having me or anyone else defy the laws of nature on demand be counter productive? To His end goal?

---

So Drich, your response is to handwave mercilessly, and change the definition of A/S/K yet again so that there's no one definite success condition either?

What has this process become? "Ask, See, Knock, and something will happen. Could be anything. And if you ever stop, you weren't doing it right."

How does one test that prospect, Drich? In what way is that falsifiable?

A/S/K and you will receive a measure of the Holy Spirit. In this process you will build a relationship. The longer your involved the stronger the relationship, or if you like the puzzle analogy better the longer you work on the puzzle the more clear the puzzle picture becomes.

How is this falsifiable? How is a Puzzle falsifiable?

---

Speaking of light switches, you're saying that God died, if the light of God was extinguished, who ran this Universe? The light that we see coming from the Sun, if God died, what happened to all your switches, what can you do with those? You still don't get how stupid that story is right? If God is uncreated, how can God die? Do you know the definition of death? Death is when a created being dies.

Can someone help him, maybe PM him on how analogies work. I would but i believe any of my efforts will be dismissed as an attempt to try and illegitmatly undermine his work. Maybe if it came from one of his brothers in arms...