"The bible test" Answered.

[Minimalist]

I've never read Craig but he is popular in Christan circles.

That's because his arguments are facile.

[Ksa]

Forbids who from lying? Can you provide book Chapter and verse that say He/God is not able to lie?

You know, when I saw this I immediately thought of Hebrews 6:18 ("it is impossible for God to lie") but the context implies, not that god cannot ever lie, but that when he swears an oath he can be trusted to keep it.

Hebrews 6:16 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.

I read the "two unchanging natures" to refer to his purpose and his oath. Although why a being with an unchanging purpose would need to swear an oath is beyond me. But there does not seem to be any scripture that says that god cannot lie, and this scripture would imply that he is quite able to, barring those times when he swears an oath or if a lie would run contrary to his purpose. I admit I find it pretty fascinating.

Like he lied in Matthew 16:4 which says:

"A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away."

And Jesus never fulfills the sign of Jonah because Jonah was alive in the belly of the fish and the Christians say Jesus was DEAD in the tomb. He was DEAD. So he lied!

[xpastor]

I've never read Craig but he is popular in Christan circles.

That's because his arguments are facile.

But surely not as dopey as Drich?

[Drich]

The brother is quoting a verse from John, he didn't give the quotation but I'm willing to help him, it is John, Chapter 10 verse 30.

actually Sport 'the Brother' did in post number 67.

The verse is there in the Bible, but what is the context?
No Christian so far was able to give me the context, you can attempt brother, after I give the context you can say if it's right or wrong:

Yeah, I'm going to rightfully assume that it is wrong. i won't bother reading it because you believe Christ does not clearly state who he is in this passage, that and you don't seem to be able to read well enough to even see the Scriptural notation I left. Fighter pilots call this target lock. They get so fixated on a single point they ignore all other inputs, not allowing them to truly see what is going on around them. (many get shot down for this fault, as will you ) You seem to be so anxious to soap box your point your mind is closed off to everything else.

You want context here you go:
22 It was winter, and the time came for the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem.
Winter is a time of the year it gets cold, the Festival of Dedication is better known as hanukkah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah

23 Jesus was in the Temple area at Solomon’s Porch.
Jesus is the Son of God, (as we are about to discover here) The Temple refers to the third encarnation of the temple aka Herod's temple, because Herod the Great had it built. solomon's porch was a colonade was a long row of coloumns suspected to be located on the east side of the temple. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9h0odubF...r_embedded (1 min 10 second starts pics of the colonade)

This is sinfigant because Soloman's Porch is where the king would typically make his judgements. according to Josephus this porch survived from the orginal temple, and was incorperated into Herod's temple in Jesus' day. In simlar fashion Jesus levied many judgements against the pharisees here as well.
http://www.bible-history.com/backd2/solomons_porch.html

24 The Jewish leaders gathered around him. They said, “How long will you make us wonder about you? If you are the Messiah, then tell us clearly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I told you already, but you did not believe.

this passage is pretty self explainatory. The 'Jewish leaders included Scribes and pharisees, but was certainly not limited to them.
In Jesus' responce "I already told you." he is refering to chapter 9 and what he said in the first half of chapter 10. (you probably don't see the irony there, but it is there.)

I do miracles in my Father’s name. These miracles show who I am. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give my sheep eternal life. They will never die, and no one can take them out of my hand. 29 My Father is the one who gave them to me, and he is greater than all.[c] No one can steal my sheep out of his hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

here Christ refers to the first half of the chapter where He reidentifies Himself as the leader or Shepard for his Father's sheep. Which further identifies him and the acts/miricals that He has done as comming from God, that He and God are of one mind, and speak with one voice. That is why He finishes this discourse with "I and my Father are one." This makes Him equal to God the Father in all rights and Authority. No other prophet claimed to be God the Father's equal. This is a very significant claim that i am sure you over looked or outright dismissed.
The jews Jesus was speaking to did not. This is why the jews did the following:

31 Again the Jews there picked up stones to kill Jesus.

The jews had absolutly none of the difficulty you have in discerning what Christ was saying here, there is no confusion, there was no doubt. There can't be because of the seriousness in which they were willing to go to silence him.

To which Christ reasserts His authority proven in his ablities to Heal and produce Miricals at will.

32 But he said to them, “The many wonderful things you have seen me do are from the Father. Which of these good things are you killing me for?”

The Next verse should wipe away all doubt in a heart that is truly seeking the truth, in what Jesus said, and what the Pharisees understood Him to have said.

33 They answered, “We are not killing you for any good thing you did. But you say things that insult God. You are only a man, but you say you are the same as God! That is why we are trying to kill you!”

At this point the conversation is completely over because the Jews make it perfectly clear What Jesus said and what exactly was implied, but skimming through some of what you read i noticed you had trouble in the proper exegessis of the rest of the Chapter. So i will finish out the chapter for you.

34 Jesus answered, “It is written in your law that God said, ‘I said you are gods.’

This quote Jesus makes refers to Psalms 82:6. This is known as Asaph's song of praise. it is poetry, not a liter interpertation denoting deity amongest all men. That is why the lower case 'g' is used in the word gods.
In Asaph's song he identifies all who do God's will as sons of God the Father. We know this because in the beginning of his song he says so, He also states and declares God's deity over all of us in that God the Father still judges and retains authority over the rest of us. So those who follow The Father's will, be gods in that we all do as God wants us to do, but at the same time we are not on par with God the most high.

So what is Christ saying? That their understanding and use of the word God was at fault, and even if they would not accept ALL That they see him do, and alll that He has said, they would still be in the wrong for stoning Him because he fell into the Psalms 82-6 classification of a god. And because he was doing God's will through the miricals they could not refute, he fell under the psalms 82 version of gods at the very least keeping them in check with their own legalism.

In essence He was taking their legalism and beating them with it. Because even if they denied Him as the God most high, they could not deny his works and the Psalms 82-6 classification of Him still being able to use that name. Which is exactly what He says in the first part of verse 38. In the second part he brings it full circle and says, now because I CAN do these things it means I and my Father are one. Meaning He has put himself back on par with the Father. He took them to the edge of blaspheme and beat them back with psalms 82-6, then took them over against siteing the same passage and verification that identified Him as a psalms 82-6 god, as being On Par with God the Father/God most high. Because again He says He can not make this claim and still do the miricals He has done.

36 So why do you accuse me of insulting God for saying, ‘I am God’s Son’? I am the one God chose and sent into the world. 37 If I don’t do what my Father does, then don’t believe what I say. 38 But if I do what my Father does, you should believe in what I do. You might not believe in me, but you should believe in the things I do. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” again no other prophet has ever claimed this. Jesus said if this were not the case He could not make this claim and still do his miricals.

(Better take your suit to the cleaners It looks like someone is going to church this weekend)

Now because of what was said in 2nd half of 38 the hypocritical legalist proceeded to do what was described in 39: They tried to get Jesus again, but he escaped from them.

Jesus took these arrogant a-holes for a ride, using their own legalistic interpertations and understanding of God against them. He made a claim that would have gotten anyone killed, then He backed it up with miricals. When the miricals were questioned (because Jesus was not what they were expecting) He took them to school beating them over the head with an obscure verse that would force a true legalist to stop and walk away. then He uses this obscure verse to proove his orginal intended assertion to be legitmate, causing the legalist to break the law they were pretending to observe to satasify their own pride. (by picking up stones again to kill him even though they had no legitmate reason to do so.)

You asked later does this sound like God to you? I say abso-figgen-lutly!! Over and over Jesus/God Shows us our own hyprocrisy (the plank in our eye) while we fuss and fret over the speck in the eye of another. Jesus show the master oppressors of the Jewish people that they were monsters/wolves pretending to be shepards (the first 1/2 of chapter 10) He used their own standards to show how wicked these men really were, On The Porch of Judgement. The wisdom of Christ far exceeded the efforts of these 'holy men.' In a place quite where wisdom was traditionally sought.

40 Then he went back across the Jordan River to the place where John began his work of baptizing people. Jesus stayed there, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “John never did any miraculous signs, but everything John said about this man is true.” 42 And many people there believed in Jesus.

40 Then he went back across the Jordan River to the place where John began his work of baptizing people. Jesus stayed there, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “John never did any miraculous signs, but everything John said about this man is true.” 42 And many people there believed in Jesus.

This last bit i want to draw attention to what the peopel said about Christ. At this point Christ was revered as the Messiah because that is what john proclaimed, and because Christ backed up this claim in the miricals He performed there.

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Forbids who from lying? Can you provide book Chapter and verse that say He/God is not able to lie?

You know, when I saw this I immediately thought of Hebrews 6:18 ("it is impossible for God to lie") but the context implies, not that god cannot ever lie, but that when he swears an oath he can be trusted to keep it.

Hebrews 6:16 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.

I read the "two unchanging natures" to refer to his purpose and his oath. Although why a being with an unchanging purpose would need to swear an oath is beyond me. But there does not seem to be any scripture that says that god cannot lie, and this scripture would imply that he is quite able to, barring those times when he swears an oath or if a lie would run contrary to his purpose. I admit I find it pretty fascinating.

so again, what is a lie? It is a unauthorized deception. Can God lie? no. why? Because every deception is authorized.

[Ksa]

^ "That is why the lower case 'g' is used in the word gods."

Lies. It's a bad translation from the Greek version in which Thios is the word for God. If you translate properly, all "God" references in the Bible should have a CAPITAL G. The minuscule g is a fabrication.

Your knowledge is very weak. Do you know greek?

[Drich]

It is also mentioned in the book of Hebrews, in chapter 7 and verse 3 which says about Melchizedek:

"Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever."

Jesus had a mother, no father and he had an apparent end, because we do not agree on that either, but Melchizedek, he had NO FATHER and NO MOTHER, No beginning of days, NO end of life.

Who is that? That's God! Without father and mother is God! Without beginning of days is God! Melchizedek! He's the one who deserves true worship if anything...not a child born in a stable WHAT MAKES HIM GOD!

I want you to say you know, this child who made his mother impure for 40 days, he's God! He's Jehovah! He's Allah! He's God!

In fact, Jesus never claimed divinity. Do you know that in India alone, over 10,000 people have claimed divinity? Why do you have to worship that one man who never claimed such a thing? Why are you so unreasonable?

Bible says that Jesus, when he was 8 days old he was circumcised. God? Getting circumcised?

Actually Jesus did claim divinity in john 10 when He said I and my Father are one.

[Ksa]

It is also mentioned in the book of Hebrews, in chapter 7 and verse 3 which says about Melchizedek:

"Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever."

Jesus had a mother, no father and he had an apparent end, because we do not agree on that either, but Melchizedek, he had NO FATHER and NO MOTHER, No beginning of days, NO end of life.

Who is that? That's God! Without father and mother is God! Without beginning of days is God! Melchizedek! He's the one who deserves true worship if anything...not a child born in a stable WHAT MAKES HIM GOD!

I want you to say you know, this child who made his mother impure for 40 days, he's God! He's Jehovah! He's Allah! He's God!

In fact, Jesus never claimed divinity. Do you know that in India alone, over 10,000 people have claimed divinity? Why do you have to worship that one man who never claimed such a thing? Why are you so unreasonable?

Bible says that Jesus, when he was 8 days old he was circumcised. God? Getting circumcised?

Actually Jesus did claim divinity in john 10 when He said I and my Father are one.

That meant they are one in purpose, like I have explained. Christians took it literally and again misunderstood everything. The Bible is a Jewish book...you attempt to understand a Jewish book with your 2013 English language.

[Drich]

Drich, you are very fond of "rolling on the floor laughing out loud."

I reserve that for foolish or blantly hypocritcal comments. like the one you made where you make an assertion about something in which you have no proof and then proclaim to believe to be truth. all the while claim you can not believe in God because you have no 'proof.'

Yet my logic, my ablity to reason is in question???


Uh, no. Maybe tell us some more about your current 'faith' if you want to see example of fail logic and reason.

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Actually Jesus did claim divinity in john 10 when He said I and my Father are one.

That meant they are one in purpose, like I have explained. Christians took it literally and again misunderstood everything. The Bible is a Jewish book...you attempt to understand a Jewish book with your 2013 English language.

Sorry no. Even if Christians had a problem with understanding what Jesus Meant the Jews did not. Christ clearly asks them in Chapter 10 why do you seek to kill me, they said because you claim to be God.

The arguement is over sport, you lost. maybe you can bait another question and have better luck with that one If you decide to I ask that you start your own thread rather than hijack mine, oh and welcome to AF

[Ksa]

Sorry no. Even if Christians had a problem with understanding what Jesus Meant the Jews did not. Christ clearly asks them in Chapter 10 why do you seek to kill me, they said because you claim to be God.

The arguement is over sport, you lost. maybe you can bait another question and have better luck with that one If you decide to I ask that you start your own thread rather than hijack mine, oh and welcome to AF

The Jews had a problem with everything about Jesus! Have you read your Bible? Jesus calling them a wicked and adulterous generation...fools...SNAKES! Would you like someone addressing you like that? And the Jews were not a people to forget in a hurry, so they surround him and try to make up pretty much any bs story about him so they can give him a good bashing!

Do you follow the Jews or do you follow Jesus Christ? The Jews could have said he's Satan, would you have believed them? The Jews HATED Jesus. Jesus never claimed divinity so don't come say what the Jews said. Convert to Judaism if you care about that too much.

In the verse after that Jesus answers them "YEE ARE GODS", saying why are you trying to find fault with me when others are called Gods. Would God have said that? Would God have said I am God but so is everyone else? Unless he said: He is not God!

Every time the Jews called Jesus God, Jesus called them names and portrayed them as a lost generation. You think that by following the Jews' example and calling Jesus God, Jesus will give you a tap on the back and say good job? The Jews called him God in the Bible and Jesus told them away from me you evil doers! I DON'T KNOW YOU!

Jesus doesn't know you.

Matthew 7:22:

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

Matthew 7:23:

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

If you address Jesus as God, He doesn't know you! What more do you require as proof that he never claimed divinity?

Do you want to end up before the Kingdom of Heaven and have Jesus tell you he never knew you, depart from me you evildoer!?!? You want that to happen to you?

[ThomM]

Actually Jesus did claim divinity in john 10 when He said I and my Father are one.
[/quote]

Actually - that is not true - in the least - and is a direct problem of a translated text - failing to account for idioms of the original language.

In the terms of the languages of the supposed time of the christ - and many also today - when Caesar said that he was ONE with the Roman senate - it meant that he agreed with them. It is a common idiom for agreement - used in many languages to this day. Certainly Caesar did not mean that he and the roman senate were the same person!!!!! You can find the use of this idiom in lots of texts from all over the earth.

You rarely find your claim in countries that still use the idiom - and YOU can verify the Idiom in the many on line idiom dictionaries.

In fact - the mythology of the christ always refers to the father as another - and the father refers to the son as another as well. And the claim that they were the same person begs the question - why did the christ - on the cross - refer to his father - "Why have YOU forsaken me? - when if they were the same person - he should have said - why have I forsaken myself!!!!