Maybe People Should Not Look Up To YouTube Atheist

[davidMC1982]

The problem with rape as a crime, is that the crime very much depends on the actions of both parties. Assuming the evidence shows that intercourse took place and any other physical evidence has been considered, it essentially boils down to the understanding of consent. This means that key evidence will be that of the victim and the perpetrator. Assuming you believe in the right to a fair trial, this means the victim's motives and actions will be questioned.

What makes it harder is that not many of us will be able to determine a reasonable definition of consent. Certainly, there will be cases of explicit consent. However, there are surely as many (or more) cases involving implicit consent and this opens up a massive grey area. To me, these are the cases where the victim does have some burden of responsibility. Ignoring or denying this does nothing to get to the root of the problem, which is almost certainly cultural.

Cultural problems take time and a shift in attitudes to solve. I would guess many of society's problems have wealth inequality at their roots. In terms of rape, I would guess this generally boils down to the perceived power and worth of one individual over another, which is exacerbated by our social hierarchies.

Regarding YouTube atheists generally, they pretty much all regurgitate the same old arguments and have very little to add to a discussion. The same is true of many of the more famous Atheist speakers also.

[Zazzy]

Indeed, I do believe that a big part of the problem is that girls are taught to be passive & submissive (something I actually agree with feminists on). If girls were less so rape would not be such a big problem (and aggressive girls are hawt).

It's more than just being taught to be passive.

We are taught to look good, and we WANT to look good. So we go out to a bar looking good. We may actually want to meet men. When men pay attention to us, it's supposed to feel good, and a lot of the time, it does. If a guy gets inappropriate, we are subtly taught that that's our fault, because after all, we went out looking good and wanting to meet men. If we didn't want that type of attention, why did we go out like that?

So getting angry about it seems wrong to many women, because they're stuck in that mindfuck, and they don't want to be seen as shrill or aggressive- that's not what we came out to do. It's a bad position to be put in. But if more women would stop being afraid of public scenes, men would learn better what is and is not appropriate. It's too bad that the onus is on women, because that's not fair. But it is on us.

I've never understood why men also don't speak up more often when their friends act like this.

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What makes it harder is that not many of us will be able to determine a reasonable definition of consent. Certainly, there will be cases of explicit consent. However, there are surely as many (or more) cases involving implicit consent and this opens up a massive grey area.

1.) If the word "no" is said, at any point, there is no consent.
2.) If she's incapacitated, there's no consent, even if she seemed willing earlier.

No gray area.

[Tonus]

I think it's less to do with whether women are passive and more to do with human psychology. We expect certain behaviors from people and when they cross those boundaries we are not sure how to react. If someone takes the lead in reacting to an unusual situation, then everyone else will spring to action. There is actually a very small percentage of the population that will react in the manner that we all think we should act in certain situations. Zazzy appears to be one; most women (and even most men) who are accosted in that manner by a stranger would feel very uncomfortable but would not want to "cause a scene" and would accept it while hoping the stranger stops or goes away.

Con men and scumbags use that typical human response to take advantage of people all the time. It's not an easy hurdle to overcome, as evidenced by how commonly we respond in the passive manner, and how rarely in the aggressive. Thus, education (making it clear that such line-crossing is socially unacceptable) is very important.

[Zazzy]

I think it's less to do with whether women are passive and more to do with human psychology. We expect certain behaviors from people and when they cross those boundaries we are not sure how to react. If someone takes the lead in reacting to an unusual situation, then everyone else will spring to action.

Excellent point. The same is true of nearly ANY unexpected situation- often people will freeze if someone gets hurt, until one person rushes over to help. Then everyone else follows.

However, it is especially true that women are explicitly taught not to make waves and avoid looking shrill.

There is actually a very small percentage of the population that will react in the manner that we all think we should act in certain situations. Zazzy appears to be one; most women (and even most men) who are accosted in that manner by a stranger would feel very uncomfortable but would not want to "cause a scene" and would accept it while hoping the stranger stops or goes away.

It's not natural to me. I just decided in my mid-20s to stop putting up with inappropriate shit from men, no matter what the situation was. Luckily, I am getting to an age where it happens less and less (although I will admit to a small pang of sorrow the other day as I was sitting in my car with my dog with the windows open at a stoplight, and heard kissing noises from the car next to me, and turned to get irritated- and it was a guy kissing at my dog).

Also, I'll say that recently a WAS in a situation that stymied me. I got pinched by an ancient man in a wheelchair in an old folks home in the lunchroom. I just couldn't bring myself to do anything about it- it would have distressed all the nice old ladies so.

[davidMC1982]

1.) If the word "no" is said, at any point, there is no consent.
2.) If she's incapacitated, there's no consent, even if she seemed willing earlier.

No gray area.

And therein lies a perfect example of oversimplification of an issue. You've essentially said that it is only rape if she's incapacitated or said no. I think there are many cases outside of this that could be - and perhaps are - considered rape.

Does it consider where a woman (since everyone seems to be talking about women) puts herself in a situation she doesn't know how to get out of? Where things escalate and she feels powerless to object? Those cases may or may not be rape if it could be reasonably expected that a man could have recognised this.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Another thing people need to realize is because women are often told how to prevent rape, when rape or other types of sexual assault or harassment actually happens, they very quickly think about all the things they did "wrong". And that is a factor in why they don't tell people about what happened: they don't want to hear it from 30 different people and more importantly they don't want to hear someone saying, oh, well, you can't really blame the guy for that after what you did. There are other factors of course, but this definitely plays a role. You may think you know why they don't want someone to tell them they could've done something to prevent it, but until you've been told that yourself, you won't understand how horrible it makes you feel.

And the truth is, it's a horrible thing to say. Women are human too, we make mistakes, sometimes we forget to bring our phone with us, that doesn't mean we could've prevented it if we had a phone, do you know how easy it is to smash a phone? Women even get raped by their own husbands. How on earth do you prevent that? Most of the time rape is committed by someone who knows the girl pretty well. It just borders on ridiculous the things you have to do to "prevent" rape and in this reality all those precautions probably doesn't even significantly alter your chances.

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

Agreed, there are instances of forced "consent".

One thing that does piss me off is when I hear people basically claim that if you go out and get shitfaced, get laid (willingly) and then wake up the next day and regret it, then it constitutes rape. No it fucking doesn't.

[Lemonvariable72]

Another thing people need to realize is because women are often told how to prevent rape, when rape or other types of sexual assault or harassment actually happens, they very quickly think about all the things they did "wrong". And that is a factor in why they don't tell people about what happened: they don't want to hear it from 30 different people and more importantly they don't want to hear someone saying, oh, well, you can't really blame the guy for that after what you did. There are other factors of course, but this definitely plays a role. You may think you know why they don't want someone to tell them they could've done something to prevent it, but until you've been told that yourself, you won't understand how horrible it makes you feel.

And the truth is, it's a horrible thing to say. Women are human too, we make mistakes, sometimes we forget to bring our phone with us, that doesn't mean we could've prevented it if we had a phone, do you know how easy it is to smash a phone? Women even get raped by their own husbands. How on earth do you prevent that? Most of the time rape is committed by someone who knows the girl pretty well. It just borders on ridiculous the things you have to do to "prevent" rape and in this reality all those precautions probably doesn't even significantly alter your chances.

How. Much they alter the odds is a matter of debate, and I think there are things that can alter the odds significantly. However anyone saying it is the victims faults is a pig, plain and simple. It is not the women's fault and nor should she think like that. And as for martial rape there is something you can do about that, expose Muslim marriage laws, as they are responsible for much of that (not all) of that phenomena. I also think that is the most disgusting form of rape besides pedophilia.

[Zazzy]

And therein lies a perfect example of oversimplification of an issue. You've essentially said that it is only rape if she's incapacitated or said no. I think there are many cases outside of this that could be - and perhaps are - considered rape.

Of course there are, but those cases probably wouldn't be difficult to determine consent on. For instance, if you threaten to kill me, I probably won't say no.

Does it consider where a woman (since everyone seems to be talking about women) puts herself in a situation she doesn't know how to get out of? Where things escalate and she feels powerless to object? Those cases may or may not be rape if it could be reasonably expected that a man could have recognised this.

I've been in this situation. I have trouble with your language- of putting myself in a situation like that. It takes two people to get in a bad situation. I'll put the specifics of my situation on the table:
I willingly went home with a guy I met at a party, with the absolute intention of having sex. Once we got going, he became really aggressive and it was really not cool. I tried to slow him down- he was even hurting me a little (he bit me), but no dice, and I started to want to get the fuck out. I realized that if I DID say no at this point, there was a high probability that he would have forced me. So I just let him. It wasn't rape because I consented. But the only reason I consented was because I was pretty sure he would rape me if I didn't. So it WAS rape. Or wasn't it? I said "no" to several behaviors, and was ignored.

Did I put myself in the situation? Yes- but he was the one who was a fucking asshole who altered the situation from a consensual one to a nonconsensual one. I'm absolutely positive that he was not overlooking my fear- he liked it.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Another thing people need to realize is because women are often told how to prevent rape, when rape or other types of sexual assault or harassment actually happens, they very quickly think about all the things they did "wrong". And that is a factor in why they don't tell people about what happened: they don't want to hear it from 30 different people and more importantly they don't want to hear someone saying, oh, well, you can't really blame the guy for that after what you did. There are other factors of course, but this definitely plays a role. You may think you know why they don't want someone to tell them they could've done something to prevent it, but until you've been told that yourself, you won't understand how horrible it makes you feel.

And the truth is, it's a horrible thing to say. Women are human too, we make mistakes, sometimes we forget to bring our phone with us, that doesn't mean we could've prevented it if we had a phone, do you know how easy it is to smash a phone? Women even get raped by their own husbands. How on earth do you prevent that? Most of the time rape is committed by someone who knows the girl pretty well. It just borders on ridiculous the things you have to do to "prevent" rape and in this reality all those precautions probably doesn't even significantly alter your chances.

How. Much they alter the odds is a matter of debate, and I think there are things that can alter the odds significantly. However anyone saying it is the victims faults is a pig, plain and simple. It is not the women's fault and nor should she think like that. And as for martial rape there is something you can do about that, expose Muslim marriage laws, as they are responsible for much of that (not all) of that phenomena. I also think that is the most disgusting form of rape besides pedophilia.

The reason I say rape cannot be prevented by the potential victim is because you never know when these things will happen. Yes you can make institutional changes like education, abolishing child marriage, clearing up what imams are telling muslims about marriage and sex, but those are not things that a woman can do to keep herself safe on a day to day basis. I'm arguing that on that basis there's almost nothing that makes it significant. I am willing to concede that moving to a neighbourhood/country with lower rape stats will better your chances (if you can), but I can't think of anything else.

Have a look at this website: http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/

It really shows how often rape is committed by someone you know. I almost feel like the type where you get grabbed on a road is the minority. Mostly you know them. They have access to you. You even trust them. What can an individual do to protect themselves from so many unknowns?