RE: Free Will + Omniscience = ?????
December 12, 2013 at 1:42 pm
(December 12, 2013 at 1:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: (December 12, 2013 at 10:20 am)Upside Down Dog Wrote: Before I actually do this... you know... give you scripture... go into the Greek... deeper theology... I need to know if you're actually open to thinking a different way.
So far, you're Arminian #7643290. And honestly, I've learned to not waste my time on the cookie cutter molds. You came out swinging at the first mention of Calvinism and burped out verses that have been debunked ad infinitum.
I guess the question is can you put down what you think you know, enter this discussion with a clean slate, and then after it, make an honest decision on the presented evidence?
I did not come out swinging, I could have but what good would that have done. I know the arguments you will put forward and I'm not interested in them, been through that and have settled it with myself. All I have done was to ask a question of you and one that only requires a simple answer, so once again I'm asking, do you believe God created men to go into the eternal punishment of hell and why did He pick you not to? If you are not willing to answer my question then just say so and we'll drop this, I have no reason to argue with you.
GC
Fair enough.
Yes. I believe in a double predestination. Some Calvinists believe in a passive damnation due to an active election. I don't accept that. If God is truly omnipotent and omniscient, then He can't passively do anything.
This however begs the question of God's morality. Why would a loving God damn people?
To answer that, I have to say that God's plan is paramount. His plan began from the beginning of infinity (sic), in that, He laid out the workings and the foundations of His plan.
Because of His plan there is damnation. That is the only answer I have. Because He is omniscient and omnipotent, His plan involves damnation and salvation. Because He is omnipotence and omniscient, only He can affect damnation and salvation.
I don't know why or pretend to know He created it like this.
Back to God's morality: Is God immoral for sending people to hell?
I would say "no" simply because of how I see God's morality.
Morality in its self isn't objective... it's completely subjected and can change from society to society... person to person. There is general morality, though, that is considered the "standard" (don't murder, don't steal, etc).
But, is this God's morality? I mean, how can a sovereign, infinite being be held to subjective human morality? If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, how can we even judge His morality on any standard. What example do we have that can even compare to His morality?
We don't have one. Only God can compare Himself to His own morality. God is autonomous. So, His morality is His own. So, what we see as immoral isn't immoral to God. It serves some purpose according to His ultimate plan.
I would say God is amoral when compared to us. God only answers to Himself and does not answer to our view of "immorality".
His plan is paramount, and it is accomplished by having salvation and damnation.
Moreover, I think the view of a "loving" God floods mainstream Christianity and dilutes God's attributes. He's also wrathful, jealous, and vengeful on top of being loving, gracious, and patient. Above all, He is just. He's just according to His plan.
