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December 15, 2013 at 8:40 pm (This post was last modified: December 15, 2013 at 8:41 pm by Brakeman.)
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The quick answer to most of your questions is an issue of sovereignty.
Umm, no it isn't, it isn't even germane to the topic. Nowhere is it espoused that jesus/god lacked power.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: God is sovereign. An illustration is in the book of Job 1:6-12. Here we see that Satan (the leader and most powerful fallen angel) came before God and was only able to influence Job's life after gaining permission from God and God limited the power Satan was given.
Kinda a dick move by god there too huh?
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 1. Where did the man's will and the demon's will start and end?
The beginning and ending of the demon's will rests within the sovereignty of God, what He gives them the power to do and not to do at any given moment. ..
So basically you're saying god does whatever he likes. He makes demons that can possess and control a human and then send that human to hell if he doesn't do what pleases god, never mind the man's lack of free will and self determination. The point is free will. You have it and I assume no demon is possessing you right now. You can choose to follow jesus and be a good christian, but what if you were suddenly beset upon by a demon that makes you spew blasphemy? Would that be fair to you to have your immortal soul in danger? What if the demon made you an atheist like me, would that be fair? The question asked how much power can a demon have over a man? God's sovereignty or power isn't the answer because god seems just fine with making demons that can control and terrorize men. The question was how far does he let it go and why?
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 2. How did the possessed man recognize jesus? If the demon's told him that jesus was real and identified him, isn't that an unfair advantage? Why can't demons tell all of us which god is real?
How the man recognized Jesus is beyond the scope of my knowledge but it is quite possible that the demons did tell the man who Jesus is though that is not revealed in the text. The middle of your question is again answered by God's sovereignty, they cannot resist His will. Demons certainly could tells us who God is. James 2:19 says "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." However, they are in rebellion against God so they would certainly have no interest in testifying upon His behalf.
Sure, in your myth they could tell us, but that would give us supernatural proof of god's existence which for some odd reason isn't allowed anymore now that science is here. Who wouldn't suffer a few minutes of demon possession to get the absolute unmistakable proof that your god is real and is the right one? You say that they wouldn't help jesus any but in the story they certainly did. They identified jesus for the man.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 3. If the man's free will is strong enough to drag the demons within him toward jesus, why couldn't he have excised them himself?
Here again it isn't the man's free will that allowed him to drag the demons toward Jesus but rather God's sovereignty limited the power the demons had over the man. The man was helpless against them until he met Jesus.
ahh.. now you state that god limits demons. Why would he limit demons in some, not in others, and have the majority unpossessed completely. Why is god unconcerned with being fair to all of us humans?
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 4. Why would the demons relinquish control since they obviously knew that meeting jesus wouldn't go well for them?
Again God's sovereignty.
So why was "god's sovereignty" only a factor when jesus cam walking around? Why was god happy with the poor man suffering for all of those years?
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 5. Why would a loving god allow demon possession?
One of the toughest questions. Why would a loving God allow...?
.. The last part is the focus: that the works of God should be made manifest in him. ..
In other words, god just likes to dick around with us to show us who's boss, like a kid pulling the legs off an ant.
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 6. What happened to the demons ultimately? From the story, it appeared as though they died. Can demon's simply die and no longer exist?
.. They did not die, nor will they die. They will be tormented in everlasting fire.
So the demons that god created were really stupid and have no free will of their own either. They aren't allowed to become "saved", they are created to simply burn in hell forever. Sux to be them doesn't it? I don't think I'd go running up and tell a man that god is in town if it was going to get me into hell faster, now would I?
(December 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: 7. Why did the demons drive the pigs into the sea to drown?
I've also wondered this as well as why the townspeople would beg Jesus to leave. The text doesn't provide an answer to either of those questions at least to my knowledge.
What could scare a demon more than hell? how could god scare them to a hell by suicide when hell is supposed to be the worst thing?
Unless of course you claim that god is pulling all of the strings and demons and humans are just helpless puppets.
(December 15, 2013 at 1:24 pm)Brakeman Wrote: That sermon is such a poor read..The story does not read that way and the claim is unsupported...
Perhaps. The sermon is directed to a New Church adience that would already be familiar with the concepts. If some of the claims seem unsupported it is because they are different Swedenborg texts.
(December 15, 2013 at 1:24 pm)Brakeman Wrote: The Preacher claims that the conversation was actually between jesus and the man, and not the demons themselves.
It's a bit more subtle. Everyone is continually in the presence of both actual angels and actual demons. These spiritual beings influence us but ultimately it is for us to decide. So even though He spoke to the man, He also spoke through the man to the demons.
(December 15, 2013 at 1:24 pm)Brakeman Wrote: If this Miller guy has a magic decoder ring for the bible he should share it with the rest of us.
The decoder ring consists of 22+ volumes of exegesis in the Arcana Coelestia written by Emanuel Swedenborg at the direction of the Lord. See http://www.smallcanonsearch.org for the complete texts.
In answer to another question of yours...demons fear the light of God's truth and prefer to live in falsity, or hell.
(December 15, 2013 at 11:14 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The decoder ring consists of 22+ volumes of exegesis in the Arcana Coelestia written by Emanuel Swedenborg at the direction of the Lord. ..
And you just take this dude at his word, because, guys NEVER lie about being directed by god do they? Anyway, the volumes are the output of the magic decoder ring, not the ring itself.
(December 15, 2013 at 11:14 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: In answer to another question of yours...demons fear the light of God's truth and prefer to live in falsity, or hell.
WHY would they fear god's truth? If they prefer falsity then it is not hell to them is it? They were made by god and they presumably already know all about his "truth" now don't they?
(December 14, 2013 at 11:18 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Mark 5:2-13
King James Version (KJV)
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand) and were choked in the sea. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=KJV
Quote:So my initial questions are:
1. Where did the man's will and the demon's will start and end?
Seems in this case the demon had the greater control, I would say the man had lost his identity.
Quote:2. How did the possessed man recognize jesus? If the demon's told him that jesus was real and identified him, isn't that an unfair advantage? Why can't demons tell all of us which god is real?
He did not, the demon did, Jesus conversation was with the demon not the man.
Quote:3. If the man's free will is strong enough to drag the demons within him toward jesus, why couldn't he have excised them himself?
The demons knew who Jesus was, the man had no idea, these demons recognized the One who was always above them, ie. their creator as angels. They became demons when they chose to reject Christ.
Quote:4. Why would the demons relinquish control since they obviously knew that meeting jesus wouldn't go well for them?
They knew the had no choice and opted to be in the swine than to be cast out into the land. They made this statement themselves.
Quote:5. Why would a loving god allow demon possession?
The man allowed them to enter him, God gave him what he allowed. This is the simple answer, there is a greater thing going on here but most people who do not believe wouldn't understand and just call God cruel.
Quote:6. What happened to the demons ultimately? From the story, it appeared as though they died. Can demon's simply die and no longer exist?
I wouldn't think so, as a matter of fact I do not believe they did. Remember the demons were trying to deal with the sovereign God they had rejected by asking to be allowed to enter the swine, they did not want to be cast out into the land, they needed to possess.
Quote:7. Why did the demons drive the pigs into the sea to drown?
They didn't IMO, Jesus wanted to show the demons and His disciples that He had ultimate control over the demon and His creation, so He allowed the swine or made them run into the sea. Why, so the demons would not have anything or one to possess, the fate they were trying to avoid.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:13-23
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
(December 14, 2013 at 11:18 pm)Brakeman Wrote: 1. Where did the man's will and the demon's will start and end?
The bible does not say, but I would think the man's will was set aside for the will of the legion of demons that controlled him.
Quote:2. How did the possessed man recognize jesus?
The essence of the man was oppressed, and the demons in control of that body recognized Him.
Quote: If the demon's told him that jesus was real and identified him, isn't that an unfair advantage?
how so?
Quote:Why can't demons tell all of us which god is real?
To whom have they ever told? They know for themselves, and lie to the rest of us. "You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the Demons believe and tremble in terror." This is what they did here.
Quote:3. If the man's free will is strong enough to drag the demons within him toward jesus, why couldn't he have excised them himself?
Read mark 5 again, The man did not drag himself to Jesus. He saw Jesus a long way off and begged Him to to torment the demons inside.
Quote:4. Why would the demons relinquish control since they obviously knew that meeting jesus wouldn't go well for them?
what choice did they have?
Quote:5. Why would a loving god allow demon possession?
Why wouldn't a loving God allow demon possession in a place expressly created to be outside of the 'hedge' of His full protection?
Quote:6. What happened to the demons ultimately? From the story, it appeared as though they died. Can demon's simply die and no longer exist?
they were disembodied.
Quote:7. Why did the demons drive the pigs into the sea to drown?
who knows?
Why did the Japanese soldiers fight to the last man? why did they bonzi charge american machine gun positions with Swords? Because it was hopless for them and they wanted to go out on their terms?? Because they believed that by sheer will they would be able to get away from death??
I'm pretty sure the demons wouldn't want their host to drown. Otherwise they would have killed the man.
Quote: When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him.
If the demons were in control, I doubt they would have run to him, instead of hidden away. Demons aren't compelled to obey Jesus or Yahweh, otherwise Satan wouldn't have rebelled. Or the angels wouldn't have followed him.
If the demons wanted to die, they would have asked for that. Obviously they were trying to reach a compromise by going into the pigs. Again, if they wanted to have something run into the sea and drown, they didn't need anyone's permission to go into pigs first. Why would they?
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
(December 17, 2013 at 12:18 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I'm pretty sure the demons wouldn't want their host to drown. Otherwise they would have killed the man.
Do you really think if your consciousness was transfered to a Pig you would want to live your current life span out that way?
I would think being human would be preferable to being a pig.
Quote:If the demons were in control, I doubt they would have run to him, instead of hidden away. Demons aren't compelled to obey Jesus or Yahweh, otherwise Satan wouldn't have rebelled. Or the angels wouldn't have followed him.
Unless they were allowed to do so.
Just like they were allowed to Leave the man and infest pigs.
Quote:If the demons wanted to die, they would have asked for that. Obviously they were trying to reach a compromise by going into the pigs. Again, if they wanted to have something run into the sea and drown, they didn't need anyone's permission to go into pigs first. Why would they?
If Jesus cast the demons out where do you think He would have sent them? They were pretty sure according to Mark that they would be sent to a place of 'torment.' that is why they Asked Him not to do that, and selected the pigs instead.
If I was a being that could possess things, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy to be in a lot of things. Besides, it was their idea to go into the pigs. I'm not sure why they would get stuck in something anyway.
I'm not sure what you mean by allowed to do so.
Ok. So why kill themselves? Where would they go if they died? Why wait until someone came along to transfer them to something else, if they just wanted to die?
It seems to me that they didn't have full control over the man. Once he saw Jesus, and ran to him, the demons had to fess up and hopefully make a compromise. They wanted to go into the pigs. Either they couldn't control the pigs, and the animals went mad and killed themselves, or Jesus had the pigs kill themselves just to spite the demons. Either way, he's responsible for the death of the pigs directly or indirectly, and makes no apologies or promises to repay the owners of the pigs.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
(December 17, 2013 at 12:51 pm)Chad32 Wrote: If I was a being that could possess things, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy to be in a lot of things. Besides, it was their idea to go into the pigs. I'm not sure why they would get stuck in something anyway.
I'm not sure what you mean by allowed to do so.
Satan and the angels were allowed to rebell. They were given an option like we were. If they weren't they would still be serving as angels.
Quote:Ok. So why kill themselves?
so they could be expelled on their terms.
Quote:Where would they go if they died?
The same place they were before they possess that man. When God cast them out they weren't cast out to Hell. The were sent here. This world this realm is the closest thing there ever will be to a satan run domain. This is satan's kingdom or rather the closest thing to it. Hell is a place of Torment for satan and his followers.
Quote:Why wait until someone came along to transfer them to something else, if they just wanted to die?
I don't know all the ins and outs of possession, because the bible does not spell them out. But appearently when Christ casts out a demon it is sent to Hell.
Now As per the parable Jesus told concerning demons in Mat 12 43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
when a demon 'comes out' on his own he is free to roam.
Quote:It seems to me that they didn't have full control over the man. Once he saw Jesus, and ran to him, the demons had to fess up and hopefully make a compromise.
There was a legion of demons inside this person. If a legion of demons are anything like a legion of Men that means there were as many as 6000 warrior class demons in this man. and yet they yeilded themselves to Christ. Which is consistant behaivor to a legion of soldiers to a general.
This story shows who Christ is in the pecking order of creation. As James 2 recordes The Demons not only believe they are terrified of Him.
Quote:They wanted to go into the pigs. Either they couldn't control the pigs, and the animals went mad and killed themselves, or Jesus had the pigs kill themselves just to spite the demons. Either way, he's responsible for the death of the pigs directly or indirectly, and makes no apologies or promises to repay the owners of the pigs.
