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We do have a purpose in our lives. Khalid Yaseen who embraced Islam in 1965 and is currently the Director of the Islamic Teaching Institute in the USA gave a lecture about the purpose of life. Here's the extract ."Unfortunately, when you ask most people the question: "What is the purpose of life?" (such a fundamental and important question), they will not tell you what they have concluded through observation or analytical reasoning. Rather, in most cases, they will simply tell you what someone else said, or they will tell you what is "commonly presumed" by others, i.e., What my father said purpose of life is, what the minister of my church said the purpose of life is, what my teacher in school said, what my friend said, etc. If I ask anyone about the purpose of eating or why do we eat, everyone will say [in one word or another] that it is for nutritional purposes, because nutrition sustains life. If I ask anyone why they work, they will say because it's a necessity in order to support themselves and to provide for the needs of their families. If I ask anyone why they sleep, why they wash, why they dress, etc., they will answer with appropriate answers, for these are common necessities for all human beings. We can follow this line of questioning with a hundred questions and receive the same or similar answers from anyone in any language from any place in the world.
Then I ask you the question: Why, when we ask the question, "What is the goal and purpose of life?" that we get many different answers? It is because people are confused; they don't really know. They are stumbling in the dark, and rather than say, "I don't know"; they just offer any answer they have been programmed to give. Think about it. Is our purpose in this world simply to eat, sleep, dress, work, acquire some material things and enjoy ourselves? Is this our purpose? Why are we born? What is the object of our existence? What is the wisdom behind the creation of man and this tremendous universe? Think about those questions."
He further explains ... " My dear respected brothers and sisters, we have to ask ourselves a further question. When you see a bridge, a building or an automobile, you automatically consider the person or company that constructed it. When you see a large ship, an airplane, a rocket, a satellite; you also think about how incredible it is. [You know by its design who the maker is.] When you see a super international airport, nuclear plant or an orbiting space station you have to be thoroughly impressed with the engineering dynamics that are involved. Yet, these are just things that are manufactured by human beings. So what about the human body with its massive and intricate control systems? Think about it.
Think about the brain: how it thinks, functions, analyzes, retrieves and stores information, as well as distinguishes and categorizes information in a millionth of a second, all of this constantly.
Think about the brain for a moment. (And don't forget the fact that you are using your brain to consider itself!) This is the brain that made the automobile, the rocket ships, the boats, and so on. Think about the brain and who made that!
Think about the heart. Think about how it pumps continuously for sixty or seventy years [taking in and discharging blood throughout the body] maintaining steady precision throughout the life of the person.
Think about the kidneys and the liver and the various functions they perform. The purifying instruments of the body that perform hundreds of chemical analyses simultaneously and also controls the level of toxicity in the content of the body. All of these are done automatically.
Think about your eyes, the human cameras, that adjust, focus, interpret, evaluate, discern color automatically, naturally receiving and adjusting to light and distance.
Think about it-Who created them? Who has mastered their design and function? Who plans and regulates their function? Human beings do this? No, of course not. What about this universe?
Think about this. This earth is one planet in our solar system, and our solar system is one [of possible many] solar systems. Our galaxy, The Milky Way, is one of the galaxies. There are ONE HUNDRED MILLION GALAXIES in the universe. They are all in order and they are all precise. They are not colliding with each other. They are not conflicting with on another. They are swimming along in an orbit that has been set for them. Did human beings set that into motion and are human beings maintaining that precision? No, of course not.
Think about the oceans, the fish, the insects, the birds, the plants, bacteria, and chemical elements that have not yet been discovered and cannot be detected even with the most sophisticated instruments. Yet each of them has a law that they follow. Did all of this synchronization, balance, harmony, variation, design, maintenance, operation and infinite numeration happen all by chance? Do these things function perfectly and perpetually also by chance? No, of course not. That would be totally illogical and foolish. In the least, it indicates that however it came to exist-it exists beyond the realm of human capability. We will all agree to that. The Being, The Almighty Power, God, The Creator who has the knowledge to design and proportion created all of this and is responsible for maintaining it. HE is the only one that deserves praise and gratitude.
If I were to give each one of you one hundred dollars for no reason, just for being here, you would at least say thank you. What about your eyes, your kidneys, your brain, your children, and your life: Who gave you all of that? Is He not worthy of praise and thanks? Is He not worthy of your worship and recognition?
Our purpose in this life is to recognize The Creator, to be grateful to Him, to worship Him, to surrender ourselves to Him and to obey the laws that He has determined for us. It means worship is our purpose in life. Whatever we do in the course of that worship, [i.e., the eating, the sleeping, the dressing, the working, the enjoying,] between birth and death is consequential and subject to His orders. But the main reason for our creation is worship. I don't think anyone who is analytical or scientific will have much of an argument with that purpose. They may have some other reason with themselves-but that is something they have to deal with between themselves and Almighty God.""
" My dear respected brothers and sisters, we have to ask ourselves a further question. When you see a bridge, a building or an automobile, you automatically consider the person or company that constructed it. When you see a large ship, an airplane, a rocket, a satellite; you also think about how incredible it is. [You know by its design who the maker is.] When you see a super international airport, nuclear plant or an orbiting space station you have to be thoroughly impressed with the engineering dynamics that are involved. Yet, these are just things that are manufactured by human beings. So what about the human body with its massive and intricate control systems? Think about it.
Think about the brain: how it thinks, functions, analyzes, retrieves and stores information, as well as distinguishes and categorizes information in a millionth of a second, all of this constantly.
Think about the brain for a moment. (And don't forget the fact that you are using your brain to consider itself!) This is the brain that made the automobile, the rocket ships, the boats, and so on. Think about the brain and who made that!
Think about the heart. Think about how it pumps continuously for sixty or seventy years [taking in and discharging blood throughout the body] maintaining steady precision throughout the life of the person.
Think about the kidneys and the liver and the various functions they perform. The purifying instruments of the body that perform hundreds of chemical analyses simultaneously and also controls the level of toxicity in the content of the body. All of these are done automatically.
Think about your eyes, the human cameras, that adjust, focus, interpret, evaluate, discern color automatically, naturally receiving and adjusting to light and distance.
Think about it-Who created them? Who has mastered their design and function? Who plans and regulates their function? Human beings do this? No, of course not. What about this universe?
Think about this. This earth is one planet in our solar system, and our solar system is one [of possible many] solar systems. Our galaxy, The Milky Way, is one of the galaxies. There are ONE HUNDRED MILLION GALAXIES in the universe. They are all in order and they are all precise. They are not colliding with each other. They are not conflicting with on another. They are swimming along in an orbit that has been set for them. Did human beings set that into motion and are human beings maintaining that precision? No, of course not.
Think about the oceans, the fish, the insects, the birds, the plants, bacteria, and chemical elements that have not yet been discovered and cannot be detected even with the most sophisticated instruments. Yet each of them has a law that they follow. Did all of this synchronization, balance, harmony, variation, design, maintenance, operation and infinite numeration happen all by chance? Do these things function perfectly and perpetually also by chance? No, of course not. That would be totally illogical and foolish. In the least, it indicates that however it came to exist-it exists beyond the realm of human capability. We will all agree to that. The Being, The Almighty Power, God, The Creator who has the knowledge to design and proportion created all of this and is responsible for maintaining it. HE is the only one that deserves praise and gratitude.
If I were to give each one of you one hundred dollars for no reason, just for being here, you would at least say thank you. What about your eyes, your kidneys, your brain, your children, and your life: Who gave you all of that? Is He not worthy of praise and thanks? Is He not worthy of your worship and recognition?
Our purpose in this life is to recognize The Creator, to be grateful to Him, to worship Him, to surrender ourselves to Him and to obey the laws that He has determined for us. It means worship is our purpose in life. Whatever we do in the course of that worship, [i.e., the eating, the sleeping, the dressing, the working, the enjoying,] between birth and death is consequential and subject to His orders. But the main reason for our creation is worship. I don't think anyone who is analytical or scientific will have much of an argument with that purpose. They may have some other reason with themselves-but that is something they have to deal with between themselves and Almighty God."
Also, Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Anyways, the sad thing about the text which you quote, apart from the fact that it is a more boring rehash of Paley's watchmaker argument... what I find so irritating is that the preacher is apparently willfully ignorant. He either lies or is wrong about several things which are well understood by science - he is just not on the necessary level of scientific discourse to be taken seriously by me, in other words, he sounds like an idiot. Case in point:
(March 11, 2014 at 1:55 am)Khansins Wrote: Think about this. This earth is one planet in our solar system, and our solar system is one [of possible many] solar systems. Our galaxy, The Milky Way, is one of the galaxies. There are ONE HUNDRED MILLION GALAXIES in the universe. They are all in order and they are all precise. They are not colliding with each other.
(emphasis of particularly stupid parts mine)
First of all, it's one hundred BILLION galaxies in the observable universe. Well, whatever, three orders of magnitude can happen. We know that there are many many other solar systems, but hey, maybe the latest Kepler data eluded the writer of these lines.
The point is, whoever wrote this rant apparently didn't bother to really learn anything about the cosmos, and that really makes me sad, because such ignorance is passed on to people like you.
Of course Galaxies collide, not only are Galaxies like ours formed by collisions of smaller ones, indeed we are in a collision course with Andromeda. Here's a many particle simulation for you depicting the development in the next few billion years
I'll leave you with an inspirational picture of NGC5426 while you can contemplate how profoundly you are being misled.
By the way, that's a photo, not an artist's impression. Reality is so much more interesting than the simplistic fairy tales of your preachers. And I'm not even going into the complete ignorance of evolution on display here.
Quote:Think about the brain for a moment.
Think about the heart.
Think about your eyes
March 11, 2014 at 2:23 pm (This post was last modified: March 11, 2014 at 2:30 pm by heathendegenerate.)
You desire to know, but you don't even look into the VALIDITY OF YOUR FAITH. You avoid the dreaded google because you've found this stupid fuck story to satisfy you. I understand where you're coming from. I wish there was a right religion, but there isn't. There is only science to satisfy us. To assume we have another life in "eternal paradise" is just an attempt to keep our head up over lost loved ones. It's putting faith in people that really have no idea what they're believing.. because we need to meet someone(or plural) again.
I hate the bible. I love that do as thy whilst stuff.
14 pages in, and I'm still interested to know why Lek thinks science isn't a good avenue for exploring "why" the universe exists (I'm hoping this means "how"). I'd also like to know why he's uncomfortable creating his own meaning/purpose.
My two cents: The only meaning that is meaningful is the meaning we create. The only concepts atheism deconstructs (often accused of eliminating meaning/morality) are those that were superficial to begin with.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
(March 11, 2014 at 4:21 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: 14 pages in, and I'm still interested to know why Lek thinks science isn't a good avenue for exploring "why" the universe exists (I'm hoping this means "how"). I'd also like to know why he's uncomfortable creating his own meaning/purpose.
When I talk about "why" the universe exists, I don't mean "how". I'm talking about the reason and purpose for us and everything else. If an infinite, thinking being created everything then he would have a reason for creating the universe. Though I'm not sure of the reason, I could say that I and the universe are here because God wanted it and my purpose here is to do his will. I have trouble envisioning a universe that is just here for no reason - it just is and that's all. Some ask "if there is a God why does he allow all the suffering.?" I ask "if there is no God why are we here suffering?" I view science as a vehicle for discovering how the universe operates, but not why. Those are some of the thoughts behind my original question.
March 12, 2014 at 9:16 pm (This post was last modified: March 12, 2014 at 9:18 pm by Mudhammam.)
(March 12, 2014 at 9:04 pm)Lek Wrote:
(March 11, 2014 at 4:21 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: 14 pages in, and I'm still interested to know why Lek thinks science isn't a good avenue for exploring "why" the universe exists (I'm hoping this means "how"). I'd also like to know why he's uncomfortable creating his own meaning/purpose.
When I talk about "why" the universe exists, I don't mean "how". I'm talking about the reason and purpose for us and everything else. If an infinite, thinking being created everything then he would have a reason for creating the universe. Though I'm not sure of the reason, I could say that I and the universe are here because God wanted it and my purpose here is to do his will. I have trouble envisioning a universe that is just here for no reason - it just is and that's all. Some ask "if there is a God why does he allow all the suffering.?" I ask "if there is no God why are we here suffering?" I view science as a vehicle for discovering how the universe operates, but not why. Those are some of the thoughts behind my original question.
Inserting God gets you nowhere on the "why" question. "God created us to be in fellowship with him." Why? "Because that's what God wants." Why? "Because God is lonely." Why?
Catch my drift?
Ultimately, our answers are bound to converge: WE DON'T, MAYBE CAN'T, KNOW WHY... Or if there even is an ultimate purpose.
If there is, I see no reason why it should include human beings anymore than cockroaches.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
March 12, 2014 at 9:30 pm (This post was last modified: March 12, 2014 at 9:32 pm by *Deidre*.)
(March 12, 2014 at 9:04 pm)Lek Wrote:
(March 11, 2014 at 4:21 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: 14 pages in, and I'm still interested to know why Lek thinks science isn't a good avenue for exploring "why" the universe exists (I'm hoping this means "how"). I'd also like to know why he's uncomfortable creating his own meaning/purpose.
When I talk about "why" the universe exists, I don't mean "how". I'm talking about the reason and purpose for us and everything else. If an infinite, thinking being created everything then he would have a reason for creating the universe. Though I'm not sure of the reason, I could say that I and the universe are here because God wanted it and my purpose here is to do his will. I have trouble envisioning a universe that is just here for no reason - it just is and that's all. Some ask "if there is a God why does he allow all the suffering.?" I ask "if there is no God why are we here suffering?" I view science as a vehicle for discovering how the universe operates, but not why. Those are some of the thoughts behind my original question.
I used to think along these lines as a Christian, but I came to the realization that if a Creator exists, my belief or disbelief doesn't change that fact. And that my belief or disbelief doesn't cause me to gain or lose any knowledge as it relates to if a god exists or not. If he exists, how could we ever really know? if he doesn't exist, how could we ever really not know?
The purpose of life is to live it, while we have it to live.
If a god exists, perhaps that is his gift. Nothing more or less, but just life itself.
March 12, 2014 at 10:48 pm (This post was last modified: March 12, 2014 at 10:55 pm by Chas.)
(March 11, 2014 at 1:55 am)Khansins Wrote:
We do have a purpose in our lives. Khalid Yaseen who embraced Islam in 1965 and is currently the Director of the Islamic Teaching Institute in the USA gave a lecture about the purpose of life. Here's the extract ."Unfortunately, when you ask most people the question: "What is the purpose of life?" (such a fundamental and important question), they will not tell you what they have concluded through observation or analytical reasoning. Rather, in most cases, they will simply tell you what someone else said, or they will tell you what is "commonly presumed" by others, i.e., What my father said purpose of life is, what the minister of my church said the purpose of life is, what my teacher in school said, what my friend said, etc. If I ask anyone about the purpose of eating or why do we eat, everyone will say [in one word or another] that it is for nutritional purposes, because nutrition sustains life. If I ask anyone why they work, they will say because it's a necessity in order to support themselves and to provide for the needs of their families. If I ask anyone why they sleep, why they wash, why they dress, etc., they will answer with appropriate answers, for these are common necessities for all human beings. We can follow this line of questioning with a hundred questions and receive the same or similar answers from anyone in any language from any place in the world.
Then I ask you the question: Why, when we ask the question, "What is the goal and purpose of life?" that we get many different answers? It is because people are confused; they don't really know. They are stumbling in the dark, and rather than say, "I don't know"; they just offer any answer they have been programmed to give. Think about it. Is our purpose in this world simply to eat, sleep, dress, work, acquire some material things and enjoy ourselves? Is this our purpose? Why are we born? What is the object of our existence? What is the wisdom behind the creation of man and this tremendous universe? Think about those questions."
He further explains ... " My dear respected brothers and sisters, we have to ask ourselves a further question. When you see a bridge, a building or an automobile, you automatically consider the person or company that constructed it. When you see a large ship, an airplane, a rocket, a satellite; you also think about how incredible it is. [You know by its design who the maker is.] When you see a super international airport, nuclear plant or an orbiting space station you have to be thoroughly impressed with the engineering dynamics that are involved. Yet, these are just things that are manufactured by human beings. So what about the human body with its massive and intricate control systems? Think about it.
Think about the brain: how it thinks, functions, analyzes, retrieves and stores information, as well as distinguishes and categorizes information in a millionth of a second, all of this constantly.
Think about the brain for a moment. (And don't forget the fact that you are using your brain to consider itself!) This is the brain that made the automobile, the rocket ships, the boats, and so on. Think about the brain and who made that!
Think about the heart. Think about how it pumps continuously for sixty or seventy years [taking in and discharging blood throughout the body] maintaining steady precision throughout the life of the person.
Think about the kidneys and the liver and the various functions they perform. The purifying instruments of the body that perform hundreds of chemical analyses simultaneously and also controls the level of toxicity in the content of the body. All of these are done automatically.
Think about your eyes, the human cameras, that adjust, focus, interpret, evaluate, discern color automatically, naturally receiving and adjusting to light and distance.
Think about it-Who created them? Who has mastered their design and function? Who plans and regulates their function? Human beings do this? No, of course not. What about this universe?
Think about this. This earth is one planet in our solar system, and our solar system is one [of possible many] solar systems. Our galaxy, The Milky Way, is one of the galaxies. There are ONE HUNDRED MILLION GALAXIES in the universe. They are all in order and they are all precise. They are not colliding with each other. They are not conflicting with on another. They are swimming along in an orbit that has been set for them. Did human beings set that into motion and are human beings maintaining that precision? No, of course not.
Think about the oceans, the fish, the insects, the birds, the plants, bacteria, and chemical elements that have not yet been discovered and cannot be detected even with the most sophisticated instruments. Yet each of them has a law that they follow. Did all of this synchronization, balance, harmony, variation, design, maintenance, operation and infinite numeration happen all by chance? Do these things function perfectly and perpetually also by chance? No, of course not. That would be totally illogical and foolish. In the least, it indicates that however it came to exist-it exists beyond the realm of human capability. We will all agree to that. The Being, The Almighty Power, God, The Creator who has the knowledge to design and proportion created all of this and is responsible for maintaining it. HE is the only one that deserves praise and gratitude.
If I were to give each one of you one hundred dollars for no reason, just for being here, you would at least say thank you. What about your eyes, your kidneys, your brain, your children, and your life: Who gave you all of that? Is He not worthy of praise and thanks? Is He not worthy of your worship and recognition?
Our purpose in this life is to recognize The Creator, to be grateful to Him, to worship Him, to surrender ourselves to Him and to obey the laws that He has determined for us. It means worship is our purpose in life. Whatever we do in the course of that worship, [i.e., the eating, the sleeping, the dressing, the working, the enjoying,] between birth and death is consequential and subject to His orders. But the main reason for our creation is worship. I don't think anyone who is analytical or scientific will have much of an argument with that purpose. They may have some other reason with themselves-but that is something they have to deal with between themselves and Almighty God.""
Utter bollocks. We evolved, our brains evolved, our hearts evolved.
I don't need to be told what the purpose and meaning of life are by some schizophrenic 7th century barbarian. There is no absolute purpose or meaning.
I will find my own. You can be a slave if you wish.
(March 12, 2014 at 9:04 pm)Lek Wrote:
(March 11, 2014 at 4:21 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: 14 pages in, and I'm still interested to know why Lek thinks science isn't a good avenue for exploring "why" the universe exists (I'm hoping this means "how"). I'd also like to know why he's uncomfortable creating his own meaning/purpose.
When I talk about "why" the universe exists, I don't mean "how". I'm talking about the reason and purpose for us and everything else. If an infinite, thinking being created everything then he would have a reason for creating the universe. Though I'm not sure of the reason, I could say that I and the universe are here because God wanted it and my purpose here is to do his will. I have trouble envisioning a universe that is just here for no reason - it just is and that's all. Some ask "if there is a God why does he allow all the suffering.?" I ask "if there is no God why are we here suffering?" I view science as a vehicle for discovering how the universe operates, but not why. Those are some of the thoughts behind my original question.
There is no evidence for any 'why'. And there most certainly is no evidence for any infinite beings.
Grow up, face reality.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
I have trouble envisioning a universe where it doesn't rain Dr Pepper on Sunday. Doesn't seem to have any noticeable effect on reality.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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