Witness of the Holy Spirit

[ThePinsir]

I was watching the debate between Christopher Hitchens and W. L. Craig yesterday. The topic was "does god exist". Craig presented 5 arguments. His 5th argument was something like:

Christians know god is real through the witnessing of the holy spirit. God talks to their hearts, and they know it's real and from god.

Or something like that. I think the easiest way to debunk a christian making that claim is to simply say to his/her face that he/she is full of shit, at best. At worst, schizophrenic. But much more likely full of shit.

However, I think a more polite, and perhaps more effective, argument would be: "well, you see, Muslims hear the voice of god. Jews hear the voice of god. Hindus hear the voice of their god(s). I'm sure the ancient Greeks felt that they could communicate on a personal level with their gods. They all had/have deep-seated inner convictions just as strong as yours. You can't ALL be hearing from god, so I'd reason that you're ALL wrong".

The only problem is that I've personally never heard any Muslims say Allah/Muhammad speaks to their spirit. I've never known a Hindu say their gods speak to them personally, or minister to their spirit. So, the point of my thread: are there sources, anecdotal or otherwise, that say the gods of other religions are talking/witnessing to their practitioners? Is it a tenant of Islam, for example, that Allah speaks to your spirit and gives you intense internal peace or some divine knowledge or whatever?


TL;DR:

Do religions besides Christianity claim that their god(s) speak to them?

[truthBtold]

I was watching the debate between Christopher Hitchens and W. L. Craig yesterday. The topic was "does god exist". Craig presented 5 arguments. His 5th argument was something like:

Christians know god is real through the witnessing of the holy spirit. God talks to their hearts, and they know it's real and from god.

Or something like that. I think the easiest way to debunk a christian making that claim is to simply say to his/her face that he/she is full of shit, at best. At worst, schizophrenic. But much more likely full of shit.

However, I think a more polite, and perhaps more effective, argument would be: "well, you see, Muslims hear the voice of god. Jews hear the voice of god. Hindus hear the voice of their god(s). I'm sure the ancient Greeks felt that they could communicate on a personal level with their gods. They all had/have deep-seated inner convictions just as strong as yours. You can't ALL be hearing from god, so I'd reason that you're ALL wrong".

The only problem is that I've personally never heard any Muslims say Allah/Muhammad speaks to their spirit. I've never known a Hindu say their gods speak to them personally, or minister to their spirit. So, the point of my thread: are there sources, anecdotal or otherwise, that say the gods of other religions are talking/witnessing to their practitioners? Is it a tenant of Islam, for example, that Allah speaks to your spirit and gives you intense internal peace or some divine knowledge or whatever?


TL;DR:

Do religions besides Christianity claim that their god(s) speak to them?

Just delusional Christians

[Alex K]

Well, does it have to be speaking to everybody in the population, and does it have to be THE god? Isn't talking e.g. to the spirits kind of the whole schtick of shamanism?

[FreeTony]

The whole point of a claim like that is that you can't totally debunk it, you can't expect falsifiable statements from Apologists .WLC isn't an idiot.

As long as Christians can find a way to protect their beliefs they are happy and will listen to him (and more importantly buy his books), even if it's just essentially "You can't prove there isn't a God".

[Alex K]

Also, you can't argue against it without insulting parts of the audience. A very good debate tactic.

The whole point of a claim like that is that you can't totally debunk it, you can't expect falsifiable statements from Apologists .WLC isn't an idiot.

As long as Christians can find a way to protect their beliefs they are happy and will listen to him (and more importantly buy his books), even if it's just essentially "You can't prove there isn't a God".

[Minimalist]

Yeah...the creator of the WHOLE FUCKING UNIVERSE talks to these inbred assholes.

Xtian egotism run amok!

[Esquilax]

It's a "last line of defense," kind of deal: from the point that this argument is broached on, it no longer matters what you say, or how comprehensive your debunking of their other claims are, they've got this personal experience to fall back on. Once they've made this single component of their beliefs unassailable by reason and logic, it won't matter what else you do; since you haven't gotten to the core of their system, then you're wrong and they're right.

In terms of a formal debate it's also a very clever, insidious way to poison the well; the apologist wants the audience thinking that their personal experiences are that same trump card, for exactly the same reasons. It's deeply irrational but then, apologists aren't playing rationally, they're playing to convince; at the very least, they can use this to keep the christians from wavering.

Any who do waver, well, they just aren't True Christians.

[Minimalist]

they've got this personal experience to fall back on.

Delusional fuckwits.

[LostLocke]

From what I can recall, native American Indians did/do commune with their spirits all the time.
So by Craig's 'logic' the religion/beliefs of the native Indians are also correct.

Of course you have to keep in mind that it doesn't matter how many other religions you can find that "talk" to their deities or spirits, because of course this "fact" only applies to Craig's brand of religion, ala special pleading.
Basically, "When I hear it in my heart it's my god, when another religion does it's delusion and/or demons tricking them."

[Esquilax]

Of course you have to keep in mind that it doesn't matter how many other religions you can find that "talk" to their deities or spirits, because of course this "fact" only applies to Craig's brand of religion, ala special pleading.
Basically, "When I hear it in my heart it's my god, when another religion does it's delusion and/or demons tricking them."

Or, if the apologist is in a particularly co-optey mood, then all those other religions are just hearing the one True god, the Christian god, and they're just getting the details of him wrong, because of whatever malarkey the apologist feels like pulling out of their ass.