RE: Q: do you, Christian, claim that God exists, rather than you believe that he exists?
February 23, 2014 at 11:27 pm
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2014 at 11:29 pm by max-greece.)
I wanted to pick up on this section separately.
I have highlighted 2 parts of the above and quoted the whole thing just to ensure I am not quote-mining.
Now there are several examples given of where praise is due and freely given and these are good examples.
I am not sure how they would apply to the God:Man scenario, however, as there is a total lack of equivalence between the parties here.
When I praise my wife, or my child, colleague, friend etc. there is a sense of equals. My praise should mean something to them. This is not the case with God.
As we are talking about the Christian God this is even more the case. Christians delight in telling us that we are all worthless worms in the face of God. I find that loathsome for a variety of reasons, particularly as they go on to say something to the effect of the only good things about us coming directly from God.
In effect, therefore, if the only good things about us are the bits that come from God then what is God measuring when he decides who gets into heaven and who doesn't? Isn't he really just measuring the percentage penetration of himself into us? Does that make any sense?
The second highlighted section shows the true nature of things to a Christian. We exist to praise God. As I stated in my initial response this demeans any else we do that is not specifically aimed at doing that thing.
Art, literature, music, astronomy, mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, architecture, history, geography, medicine........all now worth less, less than our main reason for existence - praising God.
I mentioned freedom before. I now do it again in the light of the Christian perspective.
Assuming the Christian God:
I was not asked if I wished to be born. In being born I am declared guilty, guilty of original sin. I must praise my creator and his son (who is him), who I never met, who died to pay for my sins, without my asking.
If I pray to the son and believe in him my sins are taken onto his shoulders and I get a pass into heaven because somehow this fools God into thinking I am sin free and I must be sin free to get in (why?).
I will be watched by God 24 hours per day, 7 days per week for my entire life. He claims to be like my parent - yet he never leaves me, never lets me go.
God, apparently, doesn't need my praise, but I can't get into heaven without it. It doesn't matter what "good deeds" I do if I haven't praised God enough I don't get in. In fact, not getting in doesn't mean being left in peace for me, it means being sent to a place where I will burn forever.
And who runs that place? Not the devil - he's burning there too apparently. So God is running hell too, set up for us worms that didn't get the message.
So I am born into a scenario where my creator hides from me. I must praise him and love him (commanded to love him no less). If I don't do it right (choosing the right path and all that) I am punished, for eternity and just to make sure he knows how I am behaving I am monitored constantly.
Sorry - but this is a dictatorship. It isn't even a benign dictatorship. I have to do what my dictator tells me to do, when he tells me to do it and as often as he tells me to do it. Failure to comply is an eternity of punishment.
So ask me again about freedom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAw6Bf_f3bA
Quote:Why Would God Want Us to Praise Him?
I was recently asked why God would want us to praise and worship Him. This is a question I hear every so often since we immediately assume that a person who demands praise is a pompous big-head. I think there are many Christians out there who secretly wonder about this—afraid to ask the question (lest they be thought unspiritual), but bothered all the same.
God is completely self-sufficient and doesn't need our praise and worship. However, He does deserve it. Would you agree that it is right and good to praise someone who is worthy of praise? We instinctively know this and praise people for all sorts of achievements. We praise the people we love and admire, and it's not right or good for us to withhold praise from them.
We all understand the concept of praise being due certain people. Imagine that you crafted an incredibly beautiful sculpture and won a prestigious award for your creation; but when the time came for the award ceremony, they gave the prize for your sculpture to the wrong artist! That would not be just, right, or good. In the same way, God—as the only being perfect in goodness, justice, love, etc.—is worthy of our praise. We do, in fact, owe Him that praise. He wants us to praise Him because it is right and good for us to do so. Since God wants us to do right and good things, of course he wants us to praise and worship Him.
Beyond the praise being right and good (and because of its being right and good), worshiping God also brings us joy and enhances our relationship with Him. We see this in human relationships as well—think of a man with his wife. Doesn’t it bring him great joy to praise her?
Here's how C.S. Lewis puts it in Reflections on the Psalms:
I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise…. The world rings with praise—lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favourite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favourite game…. I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: 'Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?' The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value. I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation. It is not out of compliment that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are; the delight is incomplete till it is expressed.
Finally, God created us for His pleasure (just as we create delightful things for our pleasure). Praising God—acknowledging His goodness, love, perfection, and all the incredible things He has done for us—brings Him pleasure. If you have children, you know what a beautiful thing it is to have them praise you. You also know the pain of having them selfishly take you for granted and ignore you. When that happens, neither you nor your children are enriched, and your relationship is strained. In the same way, the right response from us toward God is praise because He deserves it. When we act out our love and acknowledgment of Him in this way, we fulfill our purpose; and when we are rightly fulfilling our purpose, we have the best possible joy—God is pleased, our relationship with Him is enhanced, and He has rightly received what He deserves. Luckily, this is not a difficult command to follow, for when we truly love Him, our praise will flow naturally from that love.
I have highlighted 2 parts of the above and quoted the whole thing just to ensure I am not quote-mining.
Now there are several examples given of where praise is due and freely given and these are good examples.
I am not sure how they would apply to the God:Man scenario, however, as there is a total lack of equivalence between the parties here.
When I praise my wife, or my child, colleague, friend etc. there is a sense of equals. My praise should mean something to them. This is not the case with God.
As we are talking about the Christian God this is even more the case. Christians delight in telling us that we are all worthless worms in the face of God. I find that loathsome for a variety of reasons, particularly as they go on to say something to the effect of the only good things about us coming directly from God.
In effect, therefore, if the only good things about us are the bits that come from God then what is God measuring when he decides who gets into heaven and who doesn't? Isn't he really just measuring the percentage penetration of himself into us? Does that make any sense?
The second highlighted section shows the true nature of things to a Christian. We exist to praise God. As I stated in my initial response this demeans any else we do that is not specifically aimed at doing that thing.
Art, literature, music, astronomy, mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, architecture, history, geography, medicine........all now worth less, less than our main reason for existence - praising God.
I mentioned freedom before. I now do it again in the light of the Christian perspective.
Assuming the Christian God:
I was not asked if I wished to be born. In being born I am declared guilty, guilty of original sin. I must praise my creator and his son (who is him), who I never met, who died to pay for my sins, without my asking.
If I pray to the son and believe in him my sins are taken onto his shoulders and I get a pass into heaven because somehow this fools God into thinking I am sin free and I must be sin free to get in (why?).
I will be watched by God 24 hours per day, 7 days per week for my entire life. He claims to be like my parent - yet he never leaves me, never lets me go.
God, apparently, doesn't need my praise, but I can't get into heaven without it. It doesn't matter what "good deeds" I do if I haven't praised God enough I don't get in. In fact, not getting in doesn't mean being left in peace for me, it means being sent to a place where I will burn forever.
And who runs that place? Not the devil - he's burning there too apparently. So God is running hell too, set up for us worms that didn't get the message.
So I am born into a scenario where my creator hides from me. I must praise him and love him (commanded to love him no less). If I don't do it right (choosing the right path and all that) I am punished, for eternity and just to make sure he knows how I am behaving I am monitored constantly.
Sorry - but this is a dictatorship. It isn't even a benign dictatorship. I have to do what my dictator tells me to do, when he tells me to do it and as often as he tells me to do it. Failure to comply is an eternity of punishment.
So ask me again about freedom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAw6Bf_f3bA
Kuusi palaa, ja on viimeinen kerta kun annan vaimoni laittaa jouluvalot!