There is more than one way to heaven.

[Amphora]

LMFAO void!! I had heard from a gal I know today.

[leo-rcc]

Maybe bribing a priest could get you into heaven, or take you out of pergertory or hell.

That has already been tried. It is called an indulgence or pardoner. One of those practices Martin Luther opposed to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

[fr0d0]

Ok, so give us a demonstration. Which is more Valid, YHWH or Allah?

"Allah cannot be the God of the Bible is evident in the Quran and in other Muslim religious writings. Islam is simply a Seventh Century pagan Arabian religion that adopted an existing tribal moon god as the one true god and was forced on the Arab people by a self-proclaimed prophet. Its spread has not relied on the force of its arguments or proof of its truth. Rather, its expansion depended on military force and subjugation. The Jihad sanctifies murder and warlike violence. Muhammad himself led 27 Jihads.

Jesus Christ preached a gospel of peace and reconciliation and rejected the use of armed force.

Muhammad and Allah have nothing to do with Christianity or the one true God of the Bible."

Ultimately Allah is vastly inferior logically.

[theVOID]

Ok, so give us a demonstration. Which is more Valid, YHWH or Allah?

"Allah cannot be the God of the Bible is evident in the Quran and in other Muslim religious writings. Islam is simply a Seventh Century pagan Arabian religion that adopted an existing tribal moon god as the one true god and was forced on the Arab people by a self-proclaimed prophet. Its spread has not relied on the force of its arguments or proof of its truth. Rather, its expansion depended on military force and subjugation. The Jihad sanctifies murder and warlike violence. Muhammad himself led 27 Jihads.

Jesus Christ preached a gospel of peace and reconciliation and rejected the use of armed force.

Muhammad and Allah have nothing to do with Christianity or the one true God of the Bible."

Ultimately Allah is vastly inferior logically.

Quoting hahah, i knew you weren't capable of demonstrating your own reasoning.

[leo-rcc]

Ok, so give us a demonstration. Which is more Valid, YHWH or Allah?

"Jesus Christ preached a gospel of peace and reconciliation and rejected the use of armed force.

Muhammad and Allah have nothing to do with Christianity or the one true God of the Bible."

Ultimately Allah is vastly inferior logically.

Basing the validity of the message on the method the message is spread is not logical at all.

[tackattack]

I would say morality is a construct deriving from the natural instincts of communal, upwardly mobile creatures that evolved into us. The need for survival when you lose your claws logicaly leads to development of other resources.

Best answer a Christian has ever given

I would surmise life comes from an occurance that created matter in the universe and set into motion the events that led to our evolution.

Cool, we're in agreement.

I could reason that love is just another communal construct but I don't love that way, so I'm not sure where love comes from other than an outside source. I'm sure you'll love to tear that one up.

How do you know love comes from outside? I would say to the contrary it appears to be a very building-block style emotion that leads to the complex emotional states we experience.

I am aghast at the first 2. As far as love goes: I don't see it as a "building-block style" anything. Let's assume that most morals and "feelings" are physically based in neurological responces to stimuli developed from a need for survival at a communal level early on as a species. Love is the only emotion that would run counter to that logic. I'll cite (for the purposes of this discussion) that the love I'm talking about is unconditional and unfailing and capitolize it. Let's run through a scenario where a ion eats a monkey in fron of a family of monkeys. Those monkeys would then instincually feel fear (not Love) of lions. The bible teaches me to "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbor as I would myself". God's Love is what we are set to as a goal, however unattainable. I can't say I wouldn't be pissed if someone shot my kid, but I'd try to forgive them and continue to Love them as a person. The reality is I'd probably kill him and resign myself to whatever fates the courts decided. It is counter nature to Love unconditionally. I try and go into every situation with as little of a preconception, and as much openness as possible. While I don't approve of the methods of some of the atheists on here, I'd have no problems sitting down and buying beers for any of you. It is in myy Nature to Love as best as possible. The fact it is logically outside my perception of the evolutionary moralistic codes I can account for logically lends to my belief it comes from outside.

I would agree with your embolden statement and I think I'll add that to my definition. In answer to your question in our universe nothing can come from nothing. God by my definition is outside the universe and time, space, moral constructs of right and wrong don't apply.If God is outside the universe then he is distinctly seperate from the universe. What logic follows (as it was put to me) that because something has an end it doesn't necessarily have to have a begiining. Why would the rules we apply in our universe have any correlation to God?

They wouldn't, given that definition, but why do you believe there is a god and why do you believe he doesn't follow the rules we apply to every other existent thing?

Rhizo

We're finding more and more existant things every day with science. I'm going to assume by existence you mean our known universe. As the known universe expands the rules expand to accomidate the new variables. Why would the God I feel exists outside the universe and the known universe have to abide by any of the rules we've yet to create? Maybe we will find God in our universe and rationalize a mathmatical equation to assign a constant to his variable. Until that day comes I will continue to believe it exists outside our known universe and we don't have the capability to identify or rationalize it. I'll give an example which was confusing earlier.

1+1=2 ... straight forward and easy to understand.
1x+1x=2x where x=unexplained variables... straight forwad I think.
I think applying the Occam's Razor principle stated in another tread the fist equation is the simplest answer. I just can't get past that the complexity of life being reduced to a simple equation with no unknown variables. So I solve X for God and whimsically say if there is a God then he affects everything at all times.

[Violet]

I can see the ad campaign now:

"Unsure if you are going to heaven? Want to make sure you can be rescued from purgatory or even hell if the unthinkable happens? Well now you can! With the afterlife+ insurance program you can eliminate the worry of meeting god's standard for living! After your tragic passing a team of experts will assess your situation through divine revelation and in the event of you not being where you want int he afterlife will negotiate with god the terms of your admittance to heaven, for the same price as a cup of coffee each week! But wait, there's more! Sign up with a partner and save 10%! Sign up the entire family for a %20 discount or an entire community or organisation for up to %50 off the advertised price! Now you never have to worry about yourself, your friends, your family or community suffering in hell for all eternity! Perfect Christmas gift for all of your Atheist, Gay and liberal loved-ones who are destined to an eternity of suffering - pick up the phone right now and never worry again about the prospect of an eternity of suffering!"

Hilarious Perhaps it would actually work... i wonder...

[fr0d0]

Basing the validity of the message on the method the message is spread is not logical at all.

Indeed. But my point in that was really the use of force condoned by Islam to secure adherance which is absolutely illogical. Therefore Allah is less valid. Logically.

@ VOID.. I know the argument vaguely but try to answer you clearly

[LEDO]

Ok, so give us a demonstration. Which is more Valid, YHWH or Allah?

"Allah cannot be the God of the Bible is evident in the Quran and in other Muslim religious writings. Islam is simply a Seventh Century pagan Arabian religion that adopted an existing tribal moon god as the one true god and was forced on the Arab people by a self-proclaimed prophet. Its spread has not relied on the force of its arguments or proof of its truth. Rather, its expansion depended on military force and subjugation. The Jihad sanctifies murder and warlike violence. Muhammad himself led 27 Jihads.

Jesus Christ preached a gospel of peace and reconciliation and rejected the use of armed force.

Muhammad and Allah have nothing to do with Christianity or the one true God of the Bible."

Ultimately Allah is vastly inferior logically.

The God of the OT (YHWH) was a moon god. The original name was "Sin" or Nanna Sin. Mt. Sinai, where god hangs out at times, was named after him. He was a murdering bastard commanding Jews to take the lands of the Caananites and to slaughter them...sound like anything we know?

[Amphora]

Oh yes ledo, I am reading the NIV bible and I have just read past the ten commandments. What a nice loving compassionate, and honest god to set up these rules for his people.