Funny thing about theodicy

[Jacob(smooth)]

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To be intelligence requires a reality to be intelligent about. An intelligent mind absent a reality is nonsensical(it irks me when theists describe God like this). If there is no reality what do you think about? To what do you apply your logic and reason? What problems can you solve or what things can you understand?

Intelligence cannot exist unless a robust reality exists. The more robust the reality, the more potential there is for intelligence.

Imagine a world in which only two things exist. A mind and good. In that world the mind can apply logic and reason to understand itself and good.

Now imagine a world in which only three things exist. A mind, good, and evil. In this world the mind can apply logic and reason to understand itself, good, and evil. Since the second world is a more robust reality the mind in the second world has the potential to be more intelligent then the mind in the first world.

Creating a world in which only good exists comes at cost of less intelligence for that world.

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Godlike fail.

Oooo, snap! You destroyed his argument there.

However it's pretty funny if you apply this to human perspective.
Serial child torturer is in court and lawyer is saying that it's up to the persecutor to prove that torturer did not have morally sufficient reasons to torture children and if he can't do it torturer is innocent. I doubt that would work.

True enough.
But then if you believe in him, God isn't human is he. Of COURSE there is a double standard when you're talking about God. We all apply double standards when considering adults and children, or humans and cats. If God was human, he'd be evil. Yep. And if cats were human, they'd be evil to. And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Better to be smart and capable of evil then dumb and only capable of good.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/ted-an-equatio...sner-gross

Unless, of course, the 'evil' (which doesn't exist, it's a subjective description of behavior) guy kills all the good people.

The bible has a precedent for that, BTW, like when god killed everyone on the planet. But I guess only a genocidal maniac would class children/babies as inherently evil, or 'wicked'.

[Heywood]

Better to be smart and capable of evil then dumb and only capable of good.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/ted-an-equatio...sner-gross

Unless, of course, the 'evil' (which doesn't exist, it's a subjective description of behavior) guy kills all the good people.

The bible has a precedent for that, BTW, like when god killed everyone on the planet. But I guess only a genocidal maniac would class children/babies as inherently evil, or 'wicked'.

Actually Fidel, if you wanted an argument against some theists you could say that God cannot be both all good and maximally intelligent.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Unless, of course, the 'evil' (which doesn't exist, it's a subjective description of behavior) guy kills all the good people.

The bible has a precedent for that, BTW, like when god killed everyone on the planet. But I guess only a genocidal maniac would class children/babies as inherently evil, or 'wicked'.

Actually Fidel, if you wanted an argument against some theists you could say that God cannot be both all good and maximally intelligent.

Or I could just ask what a god is?

I don't need to argue with theists. They need to get their own house in order before taking on those who don't ascribe to their as of yet unsupported and unverifiable position. Either that, or stop touting belief claims as truth.

Ain't that hard. But omni facets are already self defeating in several other contexts anyway. They've been done to death on here already.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Just going to throw this out there. It's not meant to be a comparison, just a point of interest.

If you like star wars you should really consider reading the expanded universe books, set after the events of return of the Jedi. They somewhat repackage darth sideous. See one of his things was the ability to see the future. He foresaw an invasion by extragalactic aliens, the yuuzhan vong. They rocked up in "worldships" and started wiping out planets wholesale. A genocide of planets, not just populations. The galactic alliance gets completely raped because the army, military infrastructure and planet busters (death stars) which palpatine had been building to defend against these invaders had been blown up by a bunch of teenagers. In some places the rebel alliance is positively reviled for destroying the galaxy's best chance for survival. The galactic empire would have stood a chance, the new Republic didn't.

They're great books. They add real depth to the universe. Just sayin.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I actually prefer just to think of palpatine as evil and out to get what he can.

Adding addendum's to entirely rewrite the story just sucks, IMHO. The SW saga began with IV and finished with VI, as far as I'm concerned. Everything else is just filler and an attempt to recreate the story and god like editing of the originals. No reference to this thread, just my observation.

[Heywood]

Just going to throw this out there. It's not meant to be a comparison, just a point of interest.

If you like star wars you should really consider reading the expanded universe books, set after the events of return of the Jedi. They somewhat repackage darth sideous. See one of his things was the ability to see the future. He foresaw an invasion by extragalactic aliens, the yuuzhan vong. They rocked up in "worldships" and started wiping out planets wholesale. A genocide of planets, not just populations. The galactic alliance gets completely raped because the army, military infrastructure and planet busters (death stars) which palpatine had been building to defend against these invaders had been blown up by a bunch of teenagers. In some places the rebel alliance is positively reviled for destroying the galaxy's best chance for survival. The galactic empire would have stood a chance, the new Republic didn't.

They're great books. They add real depth to the universe. Just sayin.

In the novel, "I am Legend", the vampires turn out to be the good guys and Neville realizes in the end, that he was the bad guy.

A universe in which only good exists, will restrict intelligence. It limits options and understanding. It has a definite down side that the problem of evil argument simply ignores.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Just going to throw this out there. It's not meant to be a comparison, just a point of interest.

If you like star wars you should really consider reading the expanded universe books, set after the events of return of the Jedi. They somewhat repackage darth sideous. See one of his things was the ability to see the future. He foresaw an invasion by extragalactic aliens, the yuuzhan vong. They rocked up in "worldships" and started wiping out planets wholesale. A genocide of planets, not just populations. The galactic alliance gets completely raped because the army, military infrastructure and planet busters (death stars) which palpatine had been building to defend against these invaders had been blown up by a bunch of teenagers. In some places the rebel alliance is positively reviled for destroying the galaxy's best chance for survival. The galactic empire would have stood a chance, the new Republic didn't.

They're great books. They add realy depth to the universe. Just sayin.

In the novel, "I am Legend", the vampires turn out to be the good guys and Neville realizes in the end, that he was the bad guy.

Much better example. Brilliant book. Shit film.

[Esquilax]

Just going to throw this out there. It's not meant to be a comparison, just a point of interest.

If you like star wars you should really consider reading the expanded universe books, set after the events of return of the Jedi. They somewhat repackage darth sideous. See one of his things was the ability to see the future. He foresaw an invasion by extragalactic aliens, the yuuzhan vong. They rocked up in "worldships" and started wiping out planets wholesale. A genocide of planets, not just populations. The galactic alliance gets completely raped because the army, military infrastructure and planet busters (death stars) which palpatine had been building to defend against these invaders had been blown up by a bunch of teenagers. In some places the rebel alliance is positively reviled for destroying the galaxy's best chance for survival. The galactic empire would have stood a chance, the new Republic didn't.

They're great books. They add real depth to the universe. Just sayin.

So the guy could see into the future, but he was unable to see the destruction of everything he worked for?

More importantly: so he has a vision of the future and, absent any evidence but the things in his head, attempts to conquer a galaxy by force, kill anyone who opposed him, and bend the course of history to his will. How could he possibly be rationally justified in doing that? Yes, the claim was eventually borne out true, but the rebels were absolutely justified in fighting back even if they knew Palpatine's rationale because he never bothered with evidence.

Saying "oh, this course of action was okay because he believed the ends justified the means" doesn't work here because the ends were indistinguishable from a delusion and the means seem like any other dictatorship founded on the crazy ideological beliefs of a single person or group of people. That's how fucking cults get started.

Get you some evidence before you start killing to get your way based on a dream you had. Send one ship out to look for these assholes. That way, not only do you know you're acting for the right reasons, but you also have something you can use to explain the situation to others and maybe get things done peacefully.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Just going to throw this out there. It's not meant to be a comparison, just a point of interest.

If you like star wars you should really consider reading the expanded universe books, set after the events of return of the Jedi. They somewhat repackage darth sideous. See one of his things was the ability to see the future. He foresaw an invasion by extragalactic aliens, the yuuzhan vong. They rocked up in "worldships" and started wiping out planets wholesale. A genocide of planets, not just populations. The galactic alliance gets completely raped because the army, military infrastructure and planet busters (death stars) which palpatine had been building to defend against these invaders had been blown up by a bunch of teenagers. In some places the rebel alliance is positively reviled for destroying the galaxy's best chance for survival. The galactic empire would have stood a chance, the new Republic didn't.

They're great books. They add real depth to the universe. Just sayin.

So the guy could see into the future, but he was unable to see the destruction of everything he worked for?

More importantly: so he has a vision of the future and, absent any evidence but the things in his head, attempts to conquer a galaxy by force, kill anyone who opposed him, and bend the course of history to his will. How could he possibly be rationally justified in doing that? Yes, the claim was eventually borne out true, but the rebels were absolutely justified in fighting back even if they knew Palpatine's rationale because he never bothered with evidence.

Saying "oh, this course of action was okay because he believed the ends justified the means" doesn't work here because the ends were indistinguishable from a delusion and the means seem like any other dictatorship founded on the crazy ideological beliefs of a single person or group of people. That's how fucking cults get started.

Get you some evidence before you start killing to get your way based on a dream you had. Send one ship out to look for these assholes. That way, not only do you know you're acting for the right reasons, but you also have something you can use to explain the situation to others and maybe get things done peacefully.

No! I still worship palatine!

Oh, sorry, wrong thread

Not really looking to get into a debate about star wars lore here (although on another thread, I am huge star wars EU geek) . Just making the point that good or evil tend to be a matter of perspective and incomplete information. The new books don't try to make him good, in fact to a large extent they abandon the good vs evil vibe altogether. They just make all the characters relatable.