Christians, what is your VERY BEST arguments for the existence of God?

[theVOID]

No you dipshit. You won't consider the POV and laughingly then claim there is no argument. You are beyond pity.

Do you have a logical argument for the existence of God or not?

[Watson]

No, there isn't. There never will be. There shouldn't ever be.

[theVOID]

Thanks Watson, i finally got a straight answer

Take notice Fr0d0, that's how easy it is.

So Watson, if there is no evidence for the existence of God either logical or empirical then why do you believe in it?

[Watson]

First, my guess would be that fr0d0 doesn't give you a straight answer because he doesn't feel you'll listen or grasp exactly what he's saying. That's not a dig, I just wanted to try and flash insight into his view as well as my own, and as well as yours.

Second, evidence and logic are two seperate things, and evidence itself does not have to be either logical or empirical. Just because the being itself is illogical does not mean that there cannot be logical explanations for why you believe in it. The belief itself is a logical conclusion based on perceptions, but the being is something wholly different, something which cannot be explained through logic.

You see where I'm going with that, I hope? There are definitely things in this world which are illogical, and most definitely, God is not logical in His existance, His attributes, or His mannerisms. Belief in him, however, I believe that that is and can be, logical.

[theVOID]

First, my guess would be that fr0d0 doesn't give you a straight answer because he doesn't feel you'll listen or grasp exactly what he's saying. That's not a dig, I just wanted to try and flash insight into his view as well as my own, and as well as yours.

It was a yes/no question.

Besides, i am listening and trying to understand his position, but as soon as i ask why he holds the presuppositions he does and why it is reasonable to do so i get nothing but hot-air.

Second, evidence and logic are two seperate things, and evidence itself does not have to be either logical or empirical.

Yes, but Empirical and logical evidences are the types of evidence that are independent, repeatable, testable and therefore the only forms of evidence that can be confirmed, Anecdotal/Testimonial evidence is rather useless in this instance as there are too many contradictory claims based on this standard with no way of being able to discern between them, there is also the issue that anecdotal evidence is indistinguishable from delusion, hallucination and lies - There is simply no standard by which to differentiate true from false because on the issue of God we have both already ruled out Empirical and Logical evidence.

Just because the being itself is illogical does not mean that there cannot be logical explanations for why you believe in it.

It's not the being that is illogical if it exists, it is the arguments that support the existence of this being that are illogical, and if the arguments for a proposition are illogical then the you have failed to prove the proposition, regardless of whether or not it is true.

I'm sure you can rationalize your belief to yourself, but does your reasoning behind the conclusion hold up to examination?

The belief itself is a logical conclusion based on perceptions, but the being is something wholly different, something which cannot be explained through logic.

I am not asking whether or not you can explain God, i am asking if the reasons for your belief are logical.

You see where I'm going with that, I hope? There are definitely things in this world which are illogical, and most definitely, God is not logical in His existance, His attributes, or His mannerisms. Belief in him, however, I believe that that is and can be, logical.

So then what are your logical reasons for belief in God?

[tackattack]

---

First, my guess would be that fr0d0 doesn't give you a straight answer because he doesn't feel you'll listen or grasp exactly what he's saying. That's not a dig, I just wanted to try and flash insight into his view as well as my own, and as well as yours.

It was a yes/no question.

Besides, i am listening and trying to understand his position, but as soon as i ask why he holds the presuppositions he does and why it is reasonable to do so i get nothing but hot-air.

Second, evidence and logic are two seperate things, and evidence itself does not have to be either logical or empirical.

Yes, but Empirical and logical evidences are the types of evidence that are independent, repeatable, testable and therefore the only forms of evidence that can be confirmed, Anecdotal/Testimonial evidence is rather useless in this instance as there are too many contradictory claims based on this standard with no way of being able to discern between them, there is also the issue that anecdotal evidence is indistinguishable from delusion, hallucination and lies - There is simply no standard by which to differentiate true from false because on the issue of God we have both already ruled out Empirical and Logical evidence.

Just because the being itself is illogical does not mean that there cannot be logical explanations for why you believe in it.

It's not the being that is illogical if it exists, it is the arguments that support the existence of this being that are illogical, and if the arguments for a proposition are illogical then the you have failed to prove the proposition, regardless of whether or not it is true.

I'm sure you can rationalize your belief to yourself, but does your reasoning behind the conclusion hold up to examination?

The belief itself is a logical conclusion based on perceptions, but the being is something wholly different, something which cannot be explained through logic.

I am not asking whether or not you can explain God, i am asking if the reasons for your belief are logical.

You see where I'm going with that, I hope? There are definitely things in this world which are illogical, and most definitely, God is not logical in His existance, His attributes, or His mannerisms. Belief in him, however, I believe that that is and can be, logical.

So then what are your logical reasons for belief in God?

---

1-confirmation of evidences are objectifiable when tested against outside sources correct? That's the crux of the arguement right? We can't provide you the type of verifiable evidence you require beause it's not objectifiable, regardless of how logical or tangible? The holy spirit is what we use for translation and verification. Regardless of how illogical / irrational to you or how intangible when you asked what's our standard, there it is.

2-Some theists feel God is a personal God, and a better statement would be our idea of God should be our own. Each of us (believers)has a holy spirit that reveals truth to us. Therefore the best idea you can have of God is your own.

Since I chimed in I'll also answer your question too if no one minds. So the following only applies as referenced in number 2 above.

A- Within our universe 99.9% of "things" have a cause.
a1- The human race should have a cause
a2- if Natural selecion is the cause of the above then nature needs a cause
a3- the matter that eixsts can not come from nothing
a4- matter then also needs a cause
a5- the laws of nature and nature itself as well as all mater should have a cause. The best cause IMO is God, due to his nature of existing outside the universe and having the power to create.

B- A extremely large percentage of our percievable (neither macro or micro) day to day lives world appears to have design
b1- "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."[Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species (New York:NAL Penguin Inc., 1958)
b2- the cell is considered the smallest unit of matter alive
b3- out of all the atoms, photons, light wavelengths and stars in the universe it is unlikely to prove by randomness that life came from non-life
b4- It would take a lot less faith (since faith is required by both with current understanding) to believe that we were designed by a creator rather than believe life from unlife.

C - Synchronicity

D- The holy spirit
d1- there is a voice in side me that doesn't speak when I expect it to
d2- it comes at inopportune times when I wish I didn't have to hear what it said.
d3- it tells me of things I could have no nowledge of and guides me to things listed in C above.
d4- this things helps me understand when lost, speak when ask, and see when blind
d5- It gives manipulates the chemicalsin my body when I wish it wouldn't, sometimes to my betterment, sometimes to mockery.
d6- I can not discernably say for sure but I see no reason for it to come from anywhere but a intangible extraneous source.

I'll have time for more later.. (edited to add more)

E- The bible
e1- a historic written collection of stories, perceptions and ideals.
e2- written from the POV of multiple authors all relatively pointing towards the same truths
e3- has some historic content, but mostly subjective, however this doesn't contend falseness nor any conspiracies.

F- Free will (or the perception of)
f1- particularly good article on my feelings here.

G- Our understanding of our universe always falls short of absolutes
g1- "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths" (Proverbs 3:5-6)
g2- Having the "blank cheque" of God isn't a convenience, I'd personally rather have all of the answers
g3- Where our understanding fails, God is there to provide understanding , and has in the past

H- Not only human perception but human sense fall short of capturing even a small portion of our reality.
h1- You eyes see everything, but out minds only subconsciously can focus on minutae.
h2- that subconscious access is extremely difficult because our focus of will determines our perception.

will do more later... (sigh I don't want to work anymore)

[fr0d0]

Do you have a logical argument for the existence of God or not?

Tacky has answered as I always try to explain and you miss. The core requirement of belief is faith. Cogitating to and from that point is logical, but you will not understand belief (from that point) without considering the possibility of faith... something Evie, for example, refuses to do.

[Zen Badger]

Do you have a logical argument for the existence of God or not?

Tacky has answered as I always try to explain and you miss. The core requirement of belief is faith. Cogitating to and from that point is logical, but you will not understand belief (from that point) without considering the possibility of faith... something Evie, for example, refuses to do.

In other words,

No

[fr0d0]

For those that think in black & white - quite possibly Zen.

[Ace Otana]

In other words,

No

Thought so. God cannot be verified in any way and some how we are suppost to believe in it in order to see? That's not rational. No evidence = no case.
Also there happen to be many atheists who once had strong faith. People who believed with all their hearts and still end up seeing religion for what it is. A delusion.