Pro-life atheists

[Losty]

I think everyone should be welcome to weigh in with their opinions. Even if (like someone) their opinions are disingenuous at best and and their evidence is flat out lies.

When it comes time to decide abort or not though, I don't think anyone's opinion counts except the woman who is hosting the fetus.

[FlyingNarwhal]

I am by default pro-choice, although I have my reservations about abortion, and could possibly swing the other way eventually. Personally I like that abortion is an option, I really don't want kids and abortion seems like a good back up plan, but there are a few things that make me wonder if it should be allowed. From what I've read, women are able to abort up until week 24 or somewhere around there, the main reason being that the baby has a good chance of survival outside the womb at this stage. But this bugs me mainly because this is a reflection of our advances in modern medicine, not a determination of when life begins. If further medical advances 50 years down the road somehow spawns an artificial womb, and the baby can then survive after 16 weeks, does that mean the time limit to get an abortion should drop to 16 weeks? I am more interested in figuring out when life begins, and applying that to abortion laws. I don't know the answer to that question, which is why I am by default pro-choice. But I think there needs to be a lot of thought that goes into deciding when life actually begins. Brain functioning occurs within the first trimester, well before the current cut off date, should that be the indicator of life? Or should consciousness be the indicator, although consciousness may not occur in babies until a few months after their birth. There are a few moral conundrums wrapped up in this issue, and even though I'm a big fan of "It's my body, I should be able to do whatever I want to it" when it comes to most issues (drug use, suicide, prostitution), I think that answer falls short on this question and is a complete oversimplification of the problems at hand. When does human life begin? If life begins early what is the greater argument, right to life or personal autonomy?

[Elskidor]

I don't know if it's super important, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to identify women who are having lots of abortions and try to help them.

Sweetie, it's the ones who keep shitting out a kid every 9 months who need help.....

I know a lot of people like that too. Granted, by the time they are thirty the ones they had in high school have long since been taken from them. There are a lot of young girls that shoot babies out like a machine gun, and have no idea what to do when they're actually in the world.

[A Theist]

I think everyone should be welcome to weigh in with their opinions. Even if (like someone) their opinions are disingenuous at best and and their evidence is flat out lies.

When it comes time to decide abort or not though, I don't think anyone's opinion counts except the woman who is hosting the fetus.

Hosting the fetus? The term here is that she's the Mother.

I would like to see abortion heavily restricted to when the pregnancy is proven to threaten the life of the mother and in the cases of rape.

[Ben Davis]

When does human life begin? If life begins early what is the greater argument, right to life or personal autonomy?

There are many different points in foetal development which could be considered. Let's start with the ones that are used in UK abortion law. In purely medical terms, 'life' begins ~18/19 weeks (when 'voluntary' movement is possible). 'Viability' comes when Sensory development completes ~week 23/24 with the full development of the nervous system. This is where abortion laws in the UK currently set limits: 'late term' is defined as 19 weeks+ with no elective abortions allowed after week 24. Only one premature birth in the UK has ever survived before week 24 and that baby was 23.5 weeks old.

However medical arguments have been made for 'life' beginning as early as ~week 6 with the development of neural hemispheres and the first brain wave activity. The end of the first trimester (13 weeks) also has its merits (most organs are developed by that stage).

The arguments which suggest conception as the start of life have no medical foundation.

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I would like to see abortion heavily restricted to when the pregnancy is proven to threaten the life of the mother and in the cases of rape.

So what mechanisms would you suggest to cope with or manage unwanted pregnancies?

[Esquilax]

Hosting the fetus? The term here is that she's the Mother.

Yes, that is precisely the kind of emotionally driven obfuscatory rhetoric that has no place in a discussion of medical procedures and scientific facts. Good job finding it, now we can drop that notion entirely.

[Losty]

I am by default pro-choice, although I have my reservations about abortion, and could possibly swing the other way eventually. Personally I like that abortion is an option, I really don't want kids and abortion seems like a good back up plan, but there are a few things that make me wonder if it should be allowed. From what I've read, women are able to abort up until week 24 or somewhere around there, the main reason being that the baby has a good chance of survival outside the womb at this stage. But this bugs me mainly because this is a reflection of our advances in modern medicine, not a determination of when life begins. If further medical advances 50 years down the road somehow spawns an artificial womb, and the baby can then survive after 16 weeks, does that mean the time limit to get an abortion should drop to 16 weeks?

I think 24 weeks is important because the nervous system is developed. The fetus is not a sentient being. I don't know about thought but it can definitely feel pain and that's a pretty important limit. We, as people, kill non people all the time and no one ever cares unless we do it in a way that causes that non person a lot of unnecessary pain.

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I think everyone should be welcome to weigh in with their opinions. Even if (like someone) their opinions are disingenuous at best and and their evidence is flat out lies.

When it comes time to decide abort or not though, I don't think anyone's opinion counts except the woman who is hosting the fetus.

Hosting the fetus? The term here is that she's the Mother.

I would like to see abortion heavily restricted to when the pregnancy is proven to threaten the life of the mother and in the cases of rape.

No that is the term you want to use. A woman with a child/children is a mother. A woman with a clump of cells in her that feeds off if her body is a host.

That's really nice. You just missed pages and pages of debate. If you want to debate again fine, give reasons why you think women's rights should be restricted and we will tell you why you are wrong.

[FlyingNarwhal]

When does human life begin? If life begins early what is the greater argument, right to life or personal autonomy?

There are many different points in foetal development which could be considered. Let's start with the ones that are used in UK abortion law. In purely medical terms, 'life' begins ~18/19 weeks (when 'voluntary' movement is possible). 'Viability' comes when Sensory development completes ~week 23/24 with the full development of the nervous system. This is where abortion laws in the UK currently set limits: 'late term' is defined as 19 weeks+ with no elective abortions allowed after week 24. Only one premature birth in the UK has ever survived before week 24 and that baby was 23.5 weeks old.

However medical arguments have been made for 'life' beginning as early as ~week 6 with the development of neural hemispheres and the first brain wave activity. The end of the first trimester (13 weeks) also has its merits (most organs are developed by that stage).

From the little research I just did, this is what I came up with for week 10:

The embryo has become a fetus. His vital organs – such as kidneys, intestines, brain, and liver – are starting to function. Tiny fingernails and toenails are forming.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_fetal-develo...0357636.bc

Now we declare people legally dead when their brain no longer functions, so I don't think I can find it unreasonable that life may begin at week 10 if that is when the brain starts to function. You said some have argued week 6, so there is the possibility that it could begin that early too.

I guess my issue with current abortion laws is that they don't seem to be drafted with a clear definition of when life begins. You said that the U.K. considers the fetus a person when it can be potentially born and live. But again that's not based on a definition of when life begins, it's based on our medical technology. 500 years ago a child born at 24 weeks probably had a much lower rate of survival then they do now.

The arguments which suggest conception as the start of life have no medical foundation.

I completely agree with that.

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So I guess unless anyone has any good reasons as to why life begins later than week 10, I think for me it comes down to two options. Either that is the line that is drawn as far as a time frame goes for getting an abortion, or we have to ask the question: What has greater merit, right to life or personal autonomy?

[rexbeccarox]

And to whoever said earlier that men should have no say in this issue, I think you're off your rocker on that one. :o This is after all really a societal issue, not one that only pertains to individuals. I think if it sort of like self-defense. There are reasonable limits within which one can say they're acting in self-defense. Outside that (and even inside it, really), the law still has to take this into consideration.

That was me, and no, I'm not off my rocker. Whatever happens in my uterus is not a societal issue.

[The Valkyrie]

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