Is Eve in Hell right now?

[Tonus]

All of God's punishments are just, an omniscient God could do nothing else.

Omniscience would not prevent him from taking any particular action, it only means that he had all of the information he needed in order to act. Nothing stops god from doing something wicked if he chooses, aside from the willingness of others to accept his actions as "good" regardless of what he does. In that sense, his treatment of Eve is "just."

If we just take the dry facts of the case (so to speak) it is pretty simple and straightforward, IMO: Eve's sin was that she disobeyed god. Eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not 'bad' in any other sense than that god told them not to do it, and told them what the penalty would be. The Bible makes pretty clear that the most important rule is to do as god commands. Adam and Eve did not, and paid the penalty that god promised, with only moderate changes.

There are two issues with this, as I see it. Boru already covered one of them, in that without the notion of good/evil or right/wrong, Eve could not have understood the ramifications of breaking the rule given by god. Her only motivation would have been the selfish desire to avoid death, and having that concern removed by the serpent's lie, she was easy prey. The second issue I referred to in my first post, which is that the rest of humanity forever and ever would not get the same opportunity that Adam and Eve got-- they would be born in a world that had been twisted to work against them, and with bodies that had been twisted to work against them, to the degree that they could not possibly determine for themselves whether or not they deserved to continue to live.

[Cato]

Cut him some slack, even the Bible can't get it's consistency straight. With that precedent it's no wonder Christians can't keep it between the lines.

I would agree with you for almost any other biblical concern; however, to my knowledge there is only one method given for tooth torture.

[RobbyPants]

Me: "Wow, this thread really got a lot of posts since I was here yesterday."

* Sees an entire page of GC arguing that hell is "just" and we all "choose" hell *

[Godscreated]

All of God's punishments are just, an omniscient God could do nothing else.

An omniscient God has literally infinite solutions at it's disposal... yet the Judeo-Christian God seems to be hung up on blood, gore, violence and absolutes. Seems rather small minded for a supposed all-knowing god wouldn't you say?

Eve understood if she or Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that death would result, she understood what death was and that it was a punishment, scripture makes that very clear. Many atheist say they do not believe she ans Adam did anything wrong, yet God found both of them hiding in the Garden, they both believed they were wrong in what they did. So her punishment was just.

GC

Saying that Eve understood that she would receive punishment if she and her counterpart ate from the tree is irrelevant. Taking the scripture from a literal standpoint Adam and Eve had absolutely no knowledge of moral action (good & evil), so how could one hold another morally responsible for their actions if they literally knew no better?

That would be akin to holding a beast morally responsible for it's actions (like a lion eating a man).

Furthermore, who is really morally wrong in this situation? The mortals who did not have the capacity to understand the concepts of right and wrong, and how to apply said concepts to their actions, or the infinitely knowledgeable deity who knew that his creations would eat from the tree but still put it there in the bloody garden anyway? Sounds like a set-up to me...

I'm sure everything about Christianity sounds like a set-up to you, that's the result of a small mind that can not understand the bigger picture.
You also assume much about a God you do not believe in and have no idea of His purposes, you are a mad and sad person who balks at everything religious.
The lion thing is as stupid a thing as I've seen on this forum, Eve understood, she explained it to the serpent.

GC

[Minimalist]

There is no "Eve." There is no "hell." There is no "god."

You're such an infant, G-C. Grow the fuck up.

[Godscreated]

---

All of God's punishments are just, an omniscient God could do nothing else.
Eve understood if she or Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that death would result, she understood what death was and that it was a punishment, scripture makes that very clear. Many atheist say they do not believe she ans Adam did anything wrong, yet God found both of them hiding in the Garden, they both believed they were wrong in what they did. So her punishment was just.

GC

---

Actually, an omniscient God couldn't justly punish anyone at all. If God knows when and where sins are going to be committed (and he does, you just said so yourself) but metes out punishment AFTER the sin takes places, that isn't justice, it is simply some bizarre form of divine entrapment.

Adam and Eve knew what they had done was wrong, but only after the fact - they had no way to know right from wrong until after they committed the act (eating the fruit) for which they were punished. The sin they committed was what gave them the knowledge to know that what they had JUST done was a sin, they couldn't possibly have known beforehand, regardless of what God told them. If God were interested in justice, he would have let them off with a finding of 'diminished capacity'.

Boru

Same old song and dance I've heard over the last four years and it still doesn't fly. They knew, even Adam explained it to Eve. How many more illogical conclusions can you and the others possibly come up with. You're even saying ans omniscient, omnipotent God could explain this to them, , get real.

GC

---

All of God's punishments are just, an omniscient God could do nothing else.

Omniscience would not prevent him from taking any particular action, it only means that he had all of the information he needed in order to act. Nothing stops god from doing something wicked if he chooses, aside from the willingness of others to accept his actions as "good" regardless of what he does. In that sense, his treatment of Eve is "just."

If we just take the dry facts of the case (so to speak) it is pretty simple and straightforward, IMO: Eve's sin was that she disobeyed god. Eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not 'bad' in any other sense than that god told them not to do it, and told them what the penalty would be. The Bible makes pretty clear that the most important rule is to do as god commands. Adam and Eve did not, and paid the penalty that god promised, with only moderate changes.

There are two issues with this, as I see it. Boru already covered one of them, in that without the notion of good/evil or right/wrong, Eve could not have understood the ramifications of breaking the rule given by god. Her only motivation would have been the selfish desire to avoid death, and having that concern removed by the serpent's lie, she was easy prey. The second issue I referred to in my first post, which is that the rest of humanity forever and ever would not get the same opportunity that Adam and Eve got-- they would be born in a world that had been twisted to work against them, and with bodies that had been twisted to work against them, to the degree that they could not possibly determine for themselves whether or not they deserved to continue to live.

I stopped by to see what others were ranting about, it's good to see that you at least think about the situation instead of going off the deep end, I need to get some sleep have been up 24 hours, will get back to you when I can think clearly, thanks for your response.

GC

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Same old song and dance I've heard over the last four years and it still doesn't fly.

It more than flies. It swoops, it soars, it cuts didoes through the clear skies of morning.

Let's approach this from another angle. Here are your instructions:

You must, without fail, fleep the grenzel smelches before the nolnek vits the contrafibularations of the metrificules. If you don't blesarnish at least oriculking wittle the klinreps will be elbitudinous.

I suggest you follow these instructions to the letter.

Boru

[Bob Kelso]

An omniscient God has literally infinite solutions at it's disposal... yet the Judeo-Christian God seems to be hung up on blood, gore, violence and absolutes. Seems rather small minded for a supposed all-knowing god wouldn't you say?


Saying that Eve understood that she would receive punishment if she and her counterpart ate from the tree is irrelevant. Taking the scripture from a literal standpoint Adam and Eve had absolutely no knowledge of moral action (good & evil), so how could one hold another morally responsible for their actions if they literally knew no better?

That would be akin to holding a beast morally responsible for it's actions (like a lion eating a man).

Furthermore, who is really morally wrong in this situation? The mortals who did not have the capacity to understand the concepts of right and wrong, and how to apply said concepts to their actions, or the infinitely knowledgeable deity who knew that his creations would eat from the tree but still put it there in the bloody garden anyway? Sounds like a set-up to me...

I'm sure everything about Christianity sounds like a set-up to you, that's the result of a small mind that can not understand the bigger picture.

You telling someone else that they have a 'small mind' is fucking hilarious. Got any more gems?

You also assume much about a God you do not believe in and have no idea of His purposes, you are a mad and sad person who balks at everything religious.

Sure, I don't believe in any gods but that doesn't mean I can't talk in hypothetical. You might want to look the definition up sometime, might save you some time and face. Ah, still going with the pathetic attempts at claiming knowledge over another person's life I see. Do you ever feel like you're about to understand something, but it slips away? Allow me to help, it's probably the realization that you're a fucking moron.

The lion thing is as stupid a thing as I've seen on this forum, Eve understood, she explained it to the serpent.

GC

Actually, she was just repeating what God had said to her like a nice little sheep. This does not denote that she understood anything.

[Cyberman]

Many atheist say they do not believe she ans Adam did anything wrong, yet God found both of them hiding in the Garden, they both believed they were wrong in what they did. So her punishment was just.

Weren't they only hiding because by that point they had already eaten the fruit that opened their eyes? The one that made them ashamed at their nakedidity? So they were still being punished for a 'crime' for which they could not possible have had prior understanding. Only an inhuman monster could hold them responsible or accountable in the circumstances.

And how does one go about hiding from an omniscient god anyway? It's not like they had iron chariots or anything.

The lion thing is as stupid a thing as I've seen on this forum,

I wish I was mendacious enough to suggest you meant "as I've posted on this forum". Sadly, I'm not. So I won't.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Chances are the Adam and Eve story is actually based upon a set of characters in the Assyrian/Babylonian Empire who collaborated with the Egyptian Pharaoh (the serpent) against the Assyrian/Babylonian Emperor. Remember, the king of Tyre was said to have lived in the Garden of Eden and he got on the wrong side of the Emperor. The Egyptian Pharaohs had a figure of a serpent on their crown.

In essence the Adam & Eve story is just a fictionalized account of a real event that happened to some unnamed ancient political bigwigs. The story is a lot easier to remember as fiction than it wold have been using real names.

After all, only insane people believe that a real snake can talk using human language. Now if it had been a parrot....