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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm
(This post was last modified: June 22, 2014 at 1:45 pm by Arthur123.)
Esquilax, I've already discussed the difference between ontology and functionality. Mistaking what that thing can do with what that thing actually is. As for the bundle of cells, the zygote is actually much more unique than that! It is the intermingling of the mother and fathers DNA to form a new, complete, genetically unique creature responsible for its own biological growth. It immediately begins producing human proteins and enzymes and is already genetically determined if it is a girl or a boy by the type of sperm that has fertilized the oocyte.
Furthermore, if I make a positive claim say its raining outside. (Lets say its not raining.) And you say its not, you are than also obligated to support your negation.
Chuck, once again you are confusing ontology with functionality. In philosophy a one-to-one correspondence with something can be said to be the same.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm
(This post was last modified: June 22, 2014 at 2:15 pm by Anomalocaris.)
No, I am not confusing ontology and functionality.
Ontological definition is always arbitrary. It is only suitable for use as a tool of comveniemce in discussion and then only if all parties involved have no relevant objections to a particular arbitrary ontology favored by one party.
There is clearly no such agreement for this discussion. Therefore any functionally or consequentially based classification favored by any party became as sound a basis for discussion as any ontological definition favored by another. I just chose mine for the sake of this argument.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm
.... why the fuck are we even talking about abortion any more? This has been settled fucking years ago, and furthermore is often unnecessary now do to the prevelance of cheap and effective birth control.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
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To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 1:56 pm
Jesus titty fucking christ! Are we seriously talking with a christian that doesn't understand the burden of proof? This is such a rare occurrence.
For those of you who may not have guessed, that was sarcasm.
Arthur, I have a dragon in my shed.
Now, is it up to you to prove that I don't?
Or
Is it up to me to provide evidence that I do?
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 2:13 pm
(June 22, 2014 at 4:18 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: (June 21, 2014 at 7:32 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Arthur, what's a "moral truth"? Can you give me a few examples?
Arthur, can you please answer this?
Third time's a charm...
(why does this always happen to me?)
Arthur, can you please give me some examples of "moral truths"?
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm
Moral truths, things regarding morality that are true regardless if anyone believes in them or not. Example, the Nazis were morally wrong perpetuating the Holocaust even if everyone in Germany thought it was okay or even all of the allied and axis forces thought it to be so.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 2:36 pm
(June 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm)Arthur123 Wrote: Esquilax, I've already discussed the difference between ontology and functionality. Mistaking what that thing can do with what that thing actually is. As for the bundle of cells, the zygote is actually much more unique than that! It is the intermingling of the mother and fathers DNA to form a new, complete, genetically unique creature responsible for its own biological growth. It immediately begins producing human proteins and enzymes and is already genetically determined if it is a girl or a boy by the type of sperm that has fertilized the oocyte.
Except that the definition of life requires a measure of functionality. You don't merely assert that something is alive, there are things it needs to be capable of doing before it reaches that point, and furthermore we have always observed a hierarchy of life in terms of what we deem acceptable to kill. Nobody bats an eye when we kill germs, for example, nor livestock for food; in those cases arguments of utility are made. We kill germs so as to not get sick, we kill livestock to eat and, it could be argued, we terminate fetuses to respect the right to bodily autonomy.
See, our rights are premised on the idea of consistent application, that they are the same throughout a society no matter who you are; that's why they're rights and not privileges. If we apply those rights inconsistently, grant them to some and not others, then the whole system is essentially invalid because it has been compromised. So it is with the right to bodily autonomy; it needs to be applied consistently to work at all, and yet you're arguing for an inconsistent application of it, a single case suspension based on a case you haven't bothered to argue in favor of a thing that lacks all of the characteristics we use to determine murder-able life, supported only by the assertion that it is murder-able.
My point is that you haven't adequately argued that a fetus is in the same category as a fully grown human life, and that simply appealing to genetics doesn't solve that problem, as there are plenty of genetically human things that we see fit to kill, including whole people in some cases. Say, where they're infringing on the rights of others... 
Quote:Furthermore, if I make a positive claim say its raining outside. (Lets say its not raining.) And you say its not, you are than also obligated to support your negation.
Can I ask what, exactly, you think the last thirty seven pages of thread were for? 
Now, I invite you to consider an expanded scenario: you assert that it's raining outside. I physically go outside, see that it's not raining, and come back to you to report that it isn't. And then you simply assert that, in fact, it is raining, and that you haven't seen any evidence that it isn't and in the absence of such an argument, it must be raining.
How well received do you think that line of argument would be?
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 2:45 pm
(June 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm)Arthur123 Wrote: Moral truths, things regarding morality that are true regardless if anyone believes in them or not. Example, the Nazis were morally wrong perpetuating the Holocaust even if everyone in Germany thought it was okay or even all of the allied and axis forces thought it to be so.
This claim also requires demonstration, not merely assertion. I sincerely hope you are aware that there are significant groups (usually with strong religious connections) then and now who think the holocaust was absolutely the right thing to do on moral grounds.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 3:30 pm
(June 22, 2014 at 12:59 pm)Arthur123 Wrote: I have been purposely ignoring trolls, however. I think you would agree that this is reasonable.
How cute. Preachy troll accusing others of trolling to justify ignoring them because he can't counter their argument. Poor abused little christer troll.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 22, 2014 at 3:39 pm
(This post was last modified: June 22, 2014 at 3:41 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(June 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm)Arthur123 Wrote: Moral truths, things regarding morality that are true regardless if anyone believes in them or not. Example, the Nazis were morally wrong perpetuating the Holocaust even if everyone in Germany thought it was okay or even all of the allied and axis forces thought it to be so.
How cute.
Morality is most definitely and most objectively what I think it is, not what you think it is.
And this is not aArthur 123 trying to petulantly form god in his own image.
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