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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 3, 2014 at 5:59 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2014 at 6:00 pm by Simon Moon.)
(July 1, 2014 at 7:46 pm)Lek Wrote: I've been researching this for awhile and lean one direction, but I'm not totally sure because there's evidence in the bible for both views.
Yeah. Isn't that convenient?
The book is so vague, you get to pick whatever you want to believe.
Quote:One possibility is that people who die as unbelievers will go to hell for an appropriate time and will then be annihilated.
If true, still an immoral system.
Quote:Another view, which I lean to more, is that those people will go to hell for a time and will eventually come to faith in Christ and will spend eternity with God.
So why send us to hell in the first place?
If this is true, then whatever time we spend in hell, no matter how long, is nothing compared to an eternity. In effect, there would by no difference. An eternity that starts after some finite time in hell, is still an eternity.
Quote:The bible states that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If most people don't end up being saved, that seems like wasted atonement to me.
Another immoral system.
A substitutionary sacrifice is immoral. Especially considering god could have just forgive us without it.
"I set up the rules knowing you were going to break them, thus condemning you before you are even born. But hey, I got it! I'll sacrifice myself to myself as a loophole to get you out of being condemned by me for breaking my rules. Genius!".
Quote:If most people don't end up being saved, that seems like wasted atonement to me. Although God can be loving by ending our misery, I think that universal reconciliation points to a loving God and it gives a correctional purpose to hell. I don't know if the majority of people will go to to hell or not, but it appears that way today. I just can't get into peoples heart's and minds. I can't know the nature of their relationship with God.
There's so much wrong with the above, I don't think I can even unpack it.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 3, 2014 at 6:34 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2014 at 6:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Vicarious redemption folks. It's not only immoral as a system - it is immoral to desire such a system, regardless of whether or not some superfairy would be so unkind as to set it up for us. But I'm not going to hold that against any particular responsibility shirker - we all have "impure thoughts".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 3, 2014 at 9:28 pm
(July 3, 2014 at 5:36 pm)ThomM Wrote: Since we have no idea who wrote virtually ALL of the original texts - maybe with the exception of a few of Paul's letters - but not even all of them - how can one claim they are forged when we do not know what the original writings even said. I prefer to call them Fictions - rather than forgeries.
Even the religions will admit that while some of the bible was LATER attributed to some of the supposed Apostles - even they know that it would be highly unlikely - even if they actually were real.
You say we have no idea who wrote virtually all if the original texts. Who are "we"? We have a very good idea who wrote most of the bible. And you know that christians know that it would be highly unlikely that the supposed authors are really the authors? Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 3, 2014 at 9:37 pm
Committees of Englishmen wrote the Bible.
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 3, 2014 at 10:17 pm
Who wrote the bible Lek?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 3, 2014 at 10:36 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2014 at 10:38 pm by Lek.)
(July 3, 2014 at 10:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Who wrote the bible Lek?
Moses, David, Solomon, Isiah, Jeremiah, Peter, John, Paul, James, Matthew, etal - and, according to Wyrd of Gawd, committees of Englishmen.
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 3, 2014 at 11:06 pm
Just so we're clear.....you're claiming that those characters, not those names in the abstract - but those actual characters - wrote the book which contains them? Like, Harry Potter...by Harry Potter?
Right?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 4, 2014 at 12:32 am
(This post was last modified: July 4, 2014 at 12:45 am by Lek.)
(July 3, 2014 at 11:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Just so we're clear.....you're claiming that those characters, not those names in the abstract - but those actual characters - wrote the book which contains them? Like, Harry Potter...by Harry Potter?
Right?
What do mean by the books that "contain" them? David wrote most of Psalms. Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes. Isiah wrote the book containing his prophecies. Luke wasn't a character in the gospel he wrote. Peter and Paul were not characters in their books. They were writing letters to churches. I guess if Jesus wrote a book it could Jesus...by Jesus.
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 4, 2014 at 3:30 am
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RE: Do Christians really believe most of us are going to hell?
July 4, 2014 at 5:15 am
(July 3, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Lek Wrote: (July 3, 2014 at 10:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Who wrote the bible Lek?
Moses, David, Solomon, Isiah, Jeremiah, Peter, John, Paul, James, Matthew, etal - and, according to Wyrd of Gawd, committees of Englishmen.
Ah, so you should have some pretty compelling evidence that those people, say, Moses to start with, existed, right? 
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