Liberal and Conservative Oversimplistic Labels?

[The Grand Nudger]

Not sure if this has ever happened where you're at Black...but here, in the US, the army has actually bombed it's own civilians -from the air- at the behest of for-profits. In fact...that's -the only- reason that we've ever intentionally bombed ourselves.

Top that!

Redistribution of wealth in europe is higher, many countries have progressive taxes, and guess what... It's not working, the poor are getting poorer in countries of crisis, in countries with super high progressive taxes rich people emigrate or create offshore accounts, same goes for the tax on the income of companies, it's too high that's why everybody put's their companies in Holland that has a 12.5% tax (including that rich guy I talked about)...

Yeah, some great guy there, running off to a tax shelter so he doesn't have to put his fair share into the pot. So much for the gingerbread roof. Our system isn;t really working any better than your own, obviously. Personally, I think a mix between the two would be a better tool for the job. Fuck me though, because everyone in power seems to insist on binary thinking when it comes to economics or politics (where's Moros when you need him?).

[Dystopia]

And the poorest people in your country have contributed by doing those jobs. They are the ones who are putting in the time and effort creating this wealth, all of which goes to the 'creator' who graciously doles out a tiny fraction of it to those who made it for him.

I don't know how it is where you live, but in America, the corporatist mindset perpetuated by conservatives is that workers deserve none of what we get, and so should be eternally grateful for the generosity of the benevolent 'job creators'.

This is, of course, not how they always thought. 150 years ago, the conservative mindset was that having black skin meant you didn't deserve anything at all, and 120 years ago, the conservative mindset was that having white skin meant that you deserved virtually nothing at all. And they'd do it today if they could get away with it.

My perspective is that workers and employers shouldn't be seen as enemies or opposites... I don't like the conservative mentality that workers should be grateful for receiving a minimum wage, and I highly dislike the mentality perpetuated by communist parties that employers are all evil bastards and the economy doesn't need them, in my country the party openly says only workers should have rights (this means those who don't work and employers have zero rights). I propose an equilibrium, worker and employer should work and collaborate for the common good, the worker should have a minimum of dignity and the employer, by a logical necessity, should benefit from the privileges of being in leadership such as higher salaries and retirement pensions. It is ok for companies to compete between each other, but I don't get it why there is rivalry and hate inside a company, the employer and the worker should work together, collaborate, this a kind of mentality that needs implement, in Japan this is the usual mentality and is one of the causes of their economical growth and development after WWII, Japs are the kind of people that will work extra hours for free to help the company, where else do you see this?

I don't think employers have the right to enslave workers, just like I don't think workers have the right toA professor of mine claims he went to Japan on a trip and people there are upset for having vacation because they can't work and are out of hobbies to dedicate their time. ask for all kinds of benefits, if they want a fair wage they should work for it, just like the employer, wages should be proportional to the wealth you generate, while keeping the free market principles alive.

It is logical that rising minimum wages will increase productivity and satisfaction between workers, but it could also cause employers to fire more people. One of the questions I have yet come to answer is - Should minimum wage rise to make workers more productive?-Or should workers be more productive to deserve a rise in wages? I like to compare my country with germany, they work less 2 hours per day, produce more and earn higher wages, but is this a matter of incentive or simply an issue of mentality and culture? I don't know.

Not sure if this has ever happened where you're at Black...but here, in the US, the army has actually bombed it's own civilians -from the air- at the behest of for-profits. In fact...that's -the only- reason that we've ever intentionally bombed ourselves.

Top that!

Yeah, some great guy there, running off to a tax shelter so he doesn't have to put his fair share into the pot. So much for the gingerbread roof. Our system isn;t really working any better than your own, obviously. Personally, I think a mix between the two would be a better tool for the job. Fuck me though, because everyone in power seems to insist on binary thinking when it comes to economics or politics (where's Moros when you need him?).

This is what you get for taxing people to high. If I had a tax of 60% over my income I would do the same without hesitation, maybe it they lowered taxes (and the rich would continue to pay most income taxes and they do) there would be less 'legal evasion'.

[The Grand Nudger]

Employers (in our system) have a built in incentive to be corrupt. Can't stress that enough. That's why some of us call corporations inherently corrupt. It doesn't even matter if the guy at the top is a living saint. As soon as he's presented with a choice between profit or piety, he absolutely must choose profit.

There's no shortage of people looking to make hundreds of times more "money" than their subordinates for doing hundreds of times less "work".

[Dystopia]

Employers (in our system) have a built in incentive to be corrupt. Can't stress that enough. That's why some of us call corporations inherently corrupt. It doesn't even matter if the guy at the top is a living saint. As soon as he's presented with a choice between profit or piety, he absolutely must choose profit.

There's no shortage of people looking to make hundreds of times more "money" than their subordinates for doing hundreds of times less "work".

Isn't that just human greed? If laws around the world were like in the US, people would be alike those corrupt employers you are talking about.

I have a problem with people criticizing major corporations, while I agree they should pay more taxes and be heavily regulated, we mustn't forget the products everyone buys and depends on them to buy. A guy once proposed to abolish corporations (major ones) and I answered 'So where do I get my car, TV, cell phone, computer, micro wave, medications?'. Not saying we couldn't produce them later by other companies but the result would be disastrous

[The Grand Nudger]

Hardly, corporations are generally the entrenched players actively preventing you from getting any of those things from anyone else. Being established has advantages, specifically in context to others wishing to offer the same services at a lower price. I'll just buy you out, and bring the price of your (former) products back in line with my own. Win win, I annihilated you, protected my position, and made a profit in the process. If you refuse to sell, at some point, you'd be replaced...because you aren't fulfilling the obligations placed upon you by incorporation (or even more stringently, by public investment within your corporation).

It's a two way street. Neither the heavy hand of government, nor the invisible hand of the market appear to have your interests (or our interests) in mind. It certainly makes no sense to defend a system that has demonstrably fucked all but those in control of that system, be they politicians or ceos.

[Dystopia]

Hardly, corporations are generally the entrenched players preventing you from getting any of those things from anyone else. Being established has advantages, specifically in context to others wishing to offer the same services at a lower price. I'll just buy you out, and bring the price of your (former) products back in line with my own. Win win, I annihilated you, protected my position, and made a profit in the process. If you refuse to sell, at some point, you'd be replaced...because you aren't fulfilling the obligations placed upon you by incorporation (or even more stringently, by public investment within your corporation).

It's a two way street. Neither the heavy hand of government, nor the invisible hand of the market appear to have your interests (or our interests) in mind. It certainly makes no sense to defend a system that has demonstrably fucked all but those in control of that system.

I'm sure Adam Smith didn't intend the free market to result in such stupidity.

[The Grand Nudger]

These moments of utter and complete agreement between us are the moments I live for.

[Dystopia]

These moments of utter and complete agreement between us are the moments I live for.

I don't disagree with you that often, I stated I was right wing and I like the idea of capitalism/free market as Adam Smith put it, not the 'greedy fuck the rest of the world' capitalism.

[Natachan]

Personally I don't like incorporation as a process. I don't like removing financial and legal liability from those who make the decisions. I also don't like how entrenched business is in the political process. I don't like how they press legislation that stifle small businesses from being competitive. I don't like tax breaks on corporate profit. I don't like those who make the most money paying proportionally LESS than those who are in the middle or lower income levels. However this doesn't change that I like free enterprise as a general rule.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't disagree with you that often

-which ought to make one wonder. not you, specifically, but anybody on your side of the fence. I don't believe in a free market at all. I think it was a terrible idea leaned upon by minds with a poor understanding of the realities of the world around them. My earth is smaller than their earth by a hefty measure. In fact - I take issue with money itself, as nothing more than a rationing system in our modern world.

I would have broken the borders of that damned chart if I hadn't answered one question one particular way. Told you it had a conservative (right) bias.