Is Rape Natural? Part 2, 2014 Edition

[Nine]

Until we have a good working discussion of natural, it's meaningless.

I agree but I think the definition would have to be stretched pretty far in order to exclude rape and murder as being natural. At that point I think you would have to define almost all human actions as unnatural.

[Jenny A]

Maybe the question ought to be are men biologically programed to rape, and if so are there any biological deterrents to that programing? I think the answers are yes, and yes.

[BTW, just to get this out of the way because it's sure to come up and I don't want it to be a gotcha, I was raped at at twelve. It was unusual because he was not a man I knew and I was hiking not walking through a dark and dangerous neighborhood. I don't think this gives me any special insight as to why men rape. I think my particular rapist was opportunistic. I'm also am pretty sure he didn't know I was anywhere near as young as twelve. People asked me what my major was that same year. ]

[Dystopia]

Until we have a good working discussion of natural, it's meaningless.

I agree but I think the definition would have to be stretched pretty far in order to exclude rape and murder as being natural. At that point I think you would have to define almost all human actions as unnatural.

I was thinking, maybe the act of rape is not natural, but the desire is... And I'd like to say something, just because animals do it in the animal kingdom that doesn't justify doing it in our realm. If we started comparing, we could as well argue that since some species eat their children it would be natural for us to do the same. Sure it may be natural for humans to desire rape or killing, but are the acts of doing so natural? Is a social constructed concept, derived from humans living in community, natural? In this last case I'd say so, just like morals can be considered natural because we all tend to form them as humans when we develop... The difference is humans have control over instincts, that's what separates us from other species, for animals it's normal to rape or kill, but since humans have control over their instincts and naturally perceive some acts as wrong, because they are socially constructed to be so and the law follows that criteria, we could say rape is not natural. I don't know, maybe it's partially natural and partially unnatural, help me out.

[Jenny A]

I agree but I think the definition would have to be stretched pretty far in order to exclude rape and murder as being natural. At that point I think you would have to define almost all human actions as unnatural.

I was thinking, maybe the act of rape is not natural, but the desire is... And I'd like to say something, just because animals do it in the animal kingdom that doesn't justify doing it in our realm. If we started comparing, we could as well argue that since some species eat their children it would be natural for us to do the same. Sure it may be natural for humans to desire rape or killing, but are the acts of doing so natural? Is a social constructed concept, derived from humans living in community, natural? In this last case I'd say so, just like morals can be considered natural because we all tend to form them as humans when we develop... The difference is humans have control over instincts, that's what separates us from other species, for animals it's normal to rape or kill, but since humans have control over their instincts and naturally perceive some acts as wrong, because they are socially constructed to be so and the law follows that criteria, we could say rape is not natural. I don't know, maybe it's partially natural and partially unnatural, help me out.

What is natural and what is moral or right are two very different questions. One of the advantages of being human is the ability to think through long term consequences and a highly developed capacity for empathy.

Rape is common enough that I'm sure it's natural. It's uncommon enough that I'm sure there are some natural breaks on it.

[Welsh cake]

Is rape natural?

Sadly... yes, it is. No different from racism. Its a demonstrable fact of life.

Is it currently socially acceptable in developed Western countries? No, thankfully.

But you cannot ever hope to stamp it out completely. To believe you can, for a single second, completely eliminate such acts from our world, is unrealistic, and you've allowed yourself to spiral down into delusion and inevitable defeat.

Can rape be better managed? Curbed? Limited? Minimized? I certainly hope so.

[LastPoet]

Maybe the question ought to be are men biologically programed to rape, and if so are there any biological deterrents to that programing? I think the answers are yes, and yes.

I can't speak for other men, but I like to trick women to open their vaginas to me. There are several tricks that may get one into such pleasant place, that may include remembering their bithday, not leaving dirty socks around, taking them to dinner & party, putting the toilet seat lid down and most importantly be a gentleman, so you go "can I insert?" she says "yes", "thank you, can I insert again?" she says "yes, please". When she says "oh god!" you appreciate the compliment.

[Jenny A]

I can't speak for other men, but I like to trick women to open their vaginas to me. There are several tricks that may get one into such pleasant place, that may include remembering their bithday, not leaving dirty socks around, taking them to dinner & party, putting the toilet seat lid down and most importantly be a gentleman, so you go "can I insert?" she says "yes", "thank you, can I insert again?" she says "yes, please". When she says "oh god!" you appreciate the compliment.

Some tricks should be encouraged.

[Dystopia]

I was thinking, maybe the act of rape is not natural, but the desire is... And I'd like to say something, just because animals do it in the animal kingdom that doesn't justify doing it in our realm. If we started comparing, we could as well argue that since some species eat their children it would be natural for us to do the same. Sure it may be natural for humans to desire rape or killing, but are the acts of doing so natural? Is a social constructed concept, derived from humans living in community, natural? In this last case I'd say so, just like morals can be considered natural because we all tend to form them as humans when we develop... The difference is humans have control over instincts, that's what separates us from other species, for animals it's normal to rape or kill, but since humans have control over their instincts and naturally perceive some acts as wrong, because they are socially constructed to be so and the law follows that criteria, we could say rape is not natural. I don't know, maybe it's partially natural and partially unnatural, help me out.

What is natural and what is moral or right are two very different questions. One of the advantages of being human is the ability to think through long term consequences and a highly developed capacity for empathy.

Rape is common enough that I'm sure it's natural. It's uncommon enough that I'm sure there are some natural breaks on it.

But how we define natural? Isn't the society something natural? Sure it is done by voluntary association of individuals, but men has always found the need to live in groups since the primitive stages, so isn't living in society and interacting with other humans as a necessity something natural? If I recall the pyramid of necessities correctly, firstly we have physical essential needs like food and water, and one or two step further we have human and social interaction/fulfillment. Sure we could say from a naturalistic point of view social concepts and morality are not natural, but I'm not talking about instincts only. If humans have always lived in society isn't it natural? And if it is, so will be social constructed concepts.

The instinct of rape is natural you'd be surprised of many men have rape fantasies and enjoy rape porn (fake, not real rape), and are kept as such, I personally had my experiences of what people call rough intercourse and males tend to enjoy it, but the question is, is the act of rape natural? How if it is forced? At least it can't be as natural as consented sexual relationships.

[Jenny A]

The instinct of rape is natural you'd be surprised of many men have rape fantasies and enjoy rape porn (fake, not real rape), and are kept as such, I personally had my experiences of what people call rough intercourse and males tend to enjoy it, but the question is, is the act of rape natural? How if it is forced? At least it can't be as natural as consented sexual relationships.

No, I doubt I'd be surprised by the number of men who enjoy rape fantasies, or even the number of women (smaller but still significant) who enjoy fantasizing about being raped (doesn't mean they'd enjoy the real deal). There's a whole porn market devoted to this topic. But I don't think it's as natural as consensual sex, at least not if natural means normative or even more commonly desired.

What you might find harder to understand is that sexual domination isn't only a masculine desire. There are those of us women who like sex rough, but not necessarily on the bottom. That's probably less normative than masculine rape, but hardly insignificant. And we have our male fans and they, oddly enough are rather more common. Human sexuality is an exotic and rather odd thing. I suspect that's because we have both are brains and are hormones involved. Fortunately engaging our empathetic brains checks most us. And therefore we play our sexual games consensually, even if we pretend to use force.

[Dystopia]

The instinct of rape is natural you'd be surprised of many men have rape fantasies and enjoy rape porn (fake, not real rape), and are kept as such, I personally had my experiences of what people call rough intercourse and males tend to enjoy it, but the question is, is the act of rape natural? How if it is forced? At least it can't be as natural as consented sexual relationships.

No, I doubt I'd be surprised by the number of men who enjoy rape fantasies, or even the number of women (smaller but still significant) who enjoy fantasizing about being raped (doesn't mean they'd enjoy the real deal). There's a whole porn market devoted to this topic. But I don't think it's as natural as consensual sex, at least not if natural means normative or even more commonly desired.

What you might find harder to understand is that sexual domination isn't only a masculine desire. There are those of us women who like sex rough, but not necessarily on the bottom. That's probably less normative than masculine rape, but hardly insignificant. And we have our male fans and they, oddly enough are rather more common. Human sexuality is an exotic and rather odd thing. I suspect that's because we have both are brains and are hormones involved. Fortunately engaging our empathetic brains checks most us. And therefore we play our sexual games consensually, even if we pretend to use force.

The key word here is 'pretend'. Do you mean women who like being dominated or dominating? I didn't quite get it, you just mentioned sexual domination.