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Abortion/Consciousness/Life
#31
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
(July 20, 2014 at 3:25 pm)Blackout Wrote:
(July 20, 2014 at 3:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Exactly right: if a fetus is a person it doesn't have the right to attach itself like a remora to another person to sustain their life, making personhood arguments moot from the get go.

Actually in my country if a fetus was a person legally they would have the right, since parents have the duty to provide for their children and not endanger their lives. But this is if the law considered a fetus a human person.

No, they wouldn't have that right: even if that child is dying, the parents are not forced to give up their bodies in service of that child. If the child needs an organ, the parent is not obligated to give one of theirs up. Hell, all you really need to do is age up the child but keep the situation the same:are you saying that in your country, if a two year old child needed to be hooked up to another person, day and night, in order to sustain its life, the mother would be compelled by the government to undergo that procedure against her will?
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#32
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
(July 20, 2014 at 3:31 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(July 20, 2014 at 3:25 pm)Blackout Wrote: Actually in my country if a fetus was a person legally they would have the right, since parents have the duty to provide for their children and not endanger their lives. But this is if the law considered a fetus a human person.

No, they wouldn't have that right: even if that child is dying, the parents are not forced to give up their bodies in service of that child. If the child needs an organ, the parent is not obligated to give one of theirs up. Hell, all you really need to do is age up the child but keep the situation the same:are you saying that in your country, if a two year old child needed to be hooked up to another person, day and night, in order to sustain its life, the mother would be compelled by the government to undergo that procedure against her will?
No, but that's a different situation. Actually a parent can be forced to risk his life for a child - The case of a kid drowning, if you know how to swim you are legally obligated to TRY to save your child, or else you'll be accused of murder on the form of omission (not doing anything). So yeah, a parent is kinda forced to take risks, but the organ case is true, a parent can't be forced. However the situation of hooking someone up is something that comes after and implies a number of risks, a regular pregnancy with no significant risks is not endangering life and only occupies the body for 9 months. This is what would happen if a fetus was a person, but they aren't anyway, and the reason they shouldn't be is because it would arise the problem I mentioned.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#33
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
It is not a different situation. It's the exact same situation except with a much larger fetus.
The drowning situation does not compare nearly as well.
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#34
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
(July 20, 2014 at 3:36 pm)Blackout Wrote: However the situation of hooking someone up is something that comes after and implies a number of risks, a regular pregnancy with no significant risks is not endangering life and only occupies the body for 9 months. This is what would happen if a fetus was a person, but they aren't anyway, and the reason they shouldn't be is because it would arise the problem I mentioned.
A "regular" pregnancy is one of the greatest risks that most women here in the states will ever take. We've gotten better at mitigating the risk, but it;s still there, ever present and ready to seriously fuck somebody up. Delivery by any means is major surgery- and that's assuming you make it all the way there. Carrying a child at all, even if you don't make it full term has profound effects on physiology and is a huge correlative factor in future risk assessment or complications.

This would be intuitively obvious to you if you had to push a small boulder out of your dick- after hefting it around for 9 months in your testicles....but you don't.....so it's not all that surprising that you found a way to marginalize pregnancy.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#35
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
If a fetus was legally considered a human person, then between killing it and making the woman hold on for 9 months the parliament would opt by making abortion illegal, I'm almost 100% sure about this. After all our penal code forbids murder and our constitution says then there is a conflict or rights the most important one prevails - Since the right to live is first than the right to your body for 9 months, the first would prevail almost absolutely.

Quote:This would be intuitively obvious to you if you had to push a small boulder out of your dick- after hefting it around for 9 months in your testicles....but you don't.....so it's not all that surprising that you found a way to marginalize pregnancy.
So I'm marginalizing pregnancy now? Sounds like a presumptuous assumption. All I did was create a hypothetical scenario if a fetus was a human person, in response to esquillax. I gave an answer according to my constitution/law's priorities, I never made a personal stance about it... And yeah, the law's decision would be the same if it were men carrying a boulder on their testicles, I'm not making distinctions

(July 20, 2014 at 3:45 pm)Losty Wrote: It is not a different situation. It's the exact same situation except with a much larger fetus.
The drowning situation does not compare nearly as well.

There is a difference between removing and plugging something, that's very clear to me. One situation is to terminate a pregnancy, the other is to plug a 'much larger fetus' (a two year old is a fetus?) to your body voluntarily. From a legal perspective, doing something and refusing to do something are not the same thing. There's no argue on that. It's different if I, let's say, voluntarily chose to hurt someone and refusing to aid someone who was hurt (damage non related to me). Criminal law distinguishes between both. So yeah plugging in a fetus and having an abortion are quite different
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#36
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
Is there some other way to read the statement I quoted and responded too? Your response was based upon a non-factual marginalization of pregnancy. In fact, that was the entirety of the justification. Somebody had to call massive bs.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#37
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
(July 20, 2014 at 4:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Is there some other way to read the statement I quoted and responded too? Your response was based upon a non-factual marginalization of pregnancy. In fact, that was the entirety of the justification.

Lol, a non factual 'marginalization' of pregnancy, but without a personal stance, you seemed to be claiming I was the one marginalizing pregnancy, I wasn't, when it comes to legality I am impartial, that's how I work. If a fetus was a person, I could as well argue we would be marginalizing human life, the label goes both ways, and I'm saying this from a legal perspective, there is no way to counter it. I don't know if it would be the same in the US, but my constitution is clear when we proclaim the right to live as almost sacred, I don't doubt the government would prefer women carrying forced pregnancies, even if the babies were all given to adoption institutions
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#38
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
[Image: d4837514_Point_over_your_head.jpeg]
Man marginalizes pregnancy, doesn't realize he has done so, even after having it explained....unsurprising.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#39
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
(July 20, 2014 at 4:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote:




It's not the first time you misinterpret my points, and I hate repeating myself with a passion. So where did I exactly marginalize pregnancy? By solving an hypothetical fantasy legal case by giving the RIGHT answer? You can disagree all you want but my response would the correct one to give me points in an exam. I was considering a legal perspective, not a personal stance. You have already called me 'gay prejudiced' indirectly. I don't get it. Is it my English?
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#40
RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
It may be a language issue sometimes. But I doubt that it was in this case. Your comment was too specific. It's not as though it;s going to invalidate some other point you want to make in and of itself. Just mentioning that if you're right in claiming that the two aren't similar - that a comparison doesn't apply, it isn't for the reason you gave, for your assumptions about pregnancy- as expressed in the portion of your post I quoted.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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