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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 3, 2014 at 3:01 pm
(October 2, 2014 at 8:56 pm)Losty Wrote: (October 2, 2014 at 7:02 pm)Chas Wrote: I don't think you read my whole post.
It is an inductive argument. At what point is the fetus a person?
This sets the time beyond which it is no longer a simple matter of a woman's choice.
This is a pro-choice argument.
I did read your whole post. I'm saying what point the fetus becomes a person is completely irrelevant.
Then you didn't understand my post.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 3, 2014 at 3:14 pm
(October 3, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Chas Wrote: (October 2, 2014 at 8:56 pm)Losty Wrote: I did read your whole post. I'm saying what point the fetus becomes a person is completely irrelevant.
Then you didn't understand my post.
My reading comprehension is fine, Chas. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 12:59 am
(October 3, 2014 at 3:14 pm)Losty Wrote: (October 3, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Chas Wrote: Then you didn't understand my post.
My reading comprehension is fine, Chas. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand.
So a person's right to autonomy outweighs an innocent person's life?
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 1:33 am
(October 4, 2014 at 12:59 am)Chas Wrote: (October 3, 2014 at 3:14 pm)Losty Wrote: My reading comprehension is fine, Chas. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand.
So a person's right to autonomy outweighs an innocent person's life?
Yes. No person has the right to another person's body even if they need it to survive. My body is mine, and mine alone, and no one has any rights over it but me. Not ever under any circumstances.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 1:52 am
You mean if I managed to get some sperm in there and it managed to crash an egg and implant .. I wouldn't automatically have rights over your body for the sake of my propagation? That's weird. How am I supposed to turn out a whole line of little .. whatever's .. without such a right? I would have thought an implanted sperm had some significance, sort of like a marker I put down to stake out a land claim. Oh well. [/sarcasm]
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 3:49 am
Same with children.. lil varmits are dependant on me and I can stop feeding them and looking after them at any time. It's my life and not theirs. If I choose to do something else in my life, if they're lucky, they survive. [/sarcasm back atcha  ]
(Disclaimer: a choice is a choice whether it's good or bad. It can't be a choice if it's taken off you)
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 4:10 am
(October 4, 2014 at 3:49 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Same with children.. lil varmits are dependant on me and I can stop feeding them and looking after them at any time. It's my life and not theirs. If I choose to do something else in my life, if they're lucky, they survive. [/sarcasm back atcha ]
(Disclaimer: a choice is a choice whether it's good or bad. It can't be a choice if it's taken off you)
This is not the same frodie. We are talking about bodily autonomy rights, not "Whatever...I'll do what I want" rights (only Cartman has those).
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 4:50 am
I don't see the difference. I'm free to dump dependents. Someone else will pick up the pieces. I have autonomy.
We naturally aborted. Lil pumpkin was only a few weeks old but it hurt a lot. I wasn't the same person after.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 6:04 am
(This post was last modified: October 4, 2014 at 6:05 am by Losty.)
(October 4, 2014 at 4:50 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I don't see the difference. I'm free to dump dependents. Someone else will pick up the pieces. I have autonomy.
We naturally aborted. Lil pumpkin was only a few weeks old but it hurt a lot. I wasn't the same person after.
I know the feeling all too well. Except I was 5 months pregnant and I miscarried as a result of abuse. It was devastating and I will never be the same either.
When I discuss abortion, though, I try to focus on rights and not my personal emotions. This is because I don't think laws should reflect my emotions, but instead should be to preserve and protect the rights of all citizens and immigrants.
Also, two other things.
1) it isn't the same at all.
2) in many US states you do have a right to just leave your child at a hospital or fire station. No questions asks.
I'm sorry for your loss, frodie 
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
October 4, 2014 at 10:01 am
(October 4, 2014 at 1:33 am)Losty Wrote: (October 4, 2014 at 12:59 am)Chas Wrote: So a person's right to autonomy outweighs an innocent person's life?
Yes. No person has the right to another person's body even if they need it to survive. My body is mine, and mine alone, and no one has any rights over it but me. Not ever under any circumstances.
No rights are absolute. One person's rights are limited by other people's rights.
The definition of when a fetus becomes a person is the crux of the abortion question. Once it is a person, the woman's right to autonomy is trumped by the baby's right to life.
If personhood is defined as starting at birth, then you can abort up to that last moment.
If personhood is defined at some earlier point, then you can't.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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