Abortion/Consciousness/Life

[Chas]

If that's how you're going to view it, there's really no point in going further.

There is no point if you actually think that 'bodily autonomy' justifies murder.

If you don't actually think that, then you are implicitly choosing birth as the start of personhood.

[FatAndFaithless]

Alrighty Chas.

[Losty]

Again...the bodily autonomy position is completely independent of the person hood argument. You define person hood to be whatever you like, it will still be irrelevant to the argument from bodily autonomy.

That seems a rather, um, ill-conceived position.

I am not saying my definition of person is correct, I am saying there already is a legal presumption of the meaning of person.

How does "bodily autonomy" make murder legal?

Our most basic right is a right to life. All other rights are contingent upon that one.

Chas, let's say you wake up tomorrow and find yourself hooked up to some lady. You are involuntarily taking her nutrients to fuel yourself. She can either endure hours possibly even days of excruciating pain and low risk of death to unhook you, in which case you have a good chance of living but not guaranteed. Her body will never be the same, and she will be legally responsible for you unless and until she gives you up for "adoption".
I say she has a right to shoot you in the head in self defense.
I don't think she should and I don't like the idea, but I think it should be her choice.

[ShaMan]

What is most needed regarding the issue of abortion is a shift in consciousness.

From what, to what?

From our consideration that we are the arbiters or all that is 'just' and 'right' and 'moral', to the complete release of all of those constructed 'ideas'. If we can accomplish that, abortion will no longer be an 'issue'.

[fr0d0]

It's always a choice (*fr0d0 bangs on the desk to get attention )

Shooting someone is your choice. Deciding if it's the right thing to do or not is your choice. Ethics would help us decide if it's right or not. Taking any sentient life needs good reason to be ethical I think. Eating said life would be one good reason. Self preservation would be another.

[Whateverist]

It's always a choice (*fr0d0 bangs on the desk to get attention )

Shooting someone is your choice. Deciding if it's the right thing to do or not is your choice. Ethics would help us decide if it's right or not. Taking any sentient life needs good reason to be ethical I think. Eating said life would be one good reason. Self preservation would be another.

But she described a situation in which the other life is literally consuming her. It is a case of kill or be eaten. How far may one go in the service of their own survival?

[fr0d0]

I think in that case she's in the right. We should start a counsel on these questions and agree ethical principles.

[Whateverist]

Are you sure? Seems like an awful lot of bother. Can't we just agree to let women kill whoever they like .. until they reach the age of majority?

[fr0d0]

I don't really understand your post w

But the idea of a council is redundant I think. Personally I'd be inclined to agree with everything Peter Stringer says I think.

[Chas]

That seems a rather, um, ill-conceived position.

I am not saying my definition of person is correct, I am saying there already is a legal presumption of the meaning of person.

How does "bodily autonomy" make murder legal?

Our most basic right is a right to life. All other rights are contingent upon that one.

Chas, let's say you wake up tomorrow and find yourself hooked up to some lady. You are involuntarily taking her nutrients to fuel yourself. She can either endure hours possibly even days of excruciating pain and low risk of death to unhook you, in which case you have a good chance of living but not guaranteed. Her body will never be the same, and she will be legally responsible for you unless and until she gives you up for "adoption".
I say she has a right to shoot you in the head in self defense.
I don't think she should and I don't like the idea, but I think it should be her choice.

That is a silly scenario not even in the same reality as pregnancy.

Women don't wake up to find themselves 7 months pregnant.

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From what, to what?

From our consideration that we are the arbiters or all that is 'just' and 'right' and 'moral', to the complete release of all of those constructed 'ideas'. If we can accomplish that, abortion will no longer be an 'issue'.

And that bears no relation to my argument.

Thanks for playing.