Spare the rod, spoil the child

[Jacob(smooth)]

Give me a motherfucking break dickhead. The evidence is so easily accessible it shouldn't even need to be presented, like I said several pages ago. You're the one being ignorant here. You're the one being intellectually dishonest and lazy. Go fuck yourself.

Lol

Well.

I admire your evangelical zeal!

However as I and others have said, the research is a bit more complex than "it's always bad". Sociological research always is. And whilst the cogency and undoubted reliability of Wikipedia is of course indisputable, and notwithstanding your strength of feeling I'm afraid reality is a little more complex than your monochrome view. One may also consider the implications of research as I'm sure the researchers do.

On the topic of research, your charmingly polarised misstatement of my point, that "all the research must be wrong" is a little crass. As you said yourself ALL the research did not say that corperal punishment is bad in all circumstances. And, in case you missed my repeated point, there is a world of difference between beating children with a belt and smacking them.

I'm sure it's true that minor physical violence can increase and become abuse. It's also true that social drinking can escalate into alcoholism. That does not mean that social drinking is bad, and any research which considered social drinking in the same study as alcoholism would be a rather crude measure.
Not so?

Please don't go Napoléon. Although consistent with the theist playbook of "it's self evident" "go find the evidence yourself" and "stream of abuse" you saying "it's not Even worth debating, it's just the TRUTH" and giving u p on the conversation would be a shame. And of course would rob me of the joy your cogent and we'll thought out, if somewhatshrill, arguments

Why not pick a study in particular and we can examine it in detail. See if it really shows what you think it shows? .

[Napoléon]

I'm left to assume you've no response to my point, then. Weak shit here.

There wasn't a point to respond to.

Oh, dear, that really rustles my jimmies. An Internet insult? I may as well kill myself.

Meanwhile, when you show yourself capable of a civil discussion -- and nuanced thought -- you let me know.

I'm having civil discussion, if you are offended by my calling you stupid. Too bad. I'm offended by the fact that you think it's okay to hurt your own children. Nuanced thought? That's a laugh coming from someone so stupid.

You're so close ... and so far away.

Admittedly my own analogy wasn't exactly relevant, I've since updated to make the point more so.

Still, you haven't responded to any of my points with anything but deflection. Quit whining about being called stupid and comprehend what I've said. Your scenario is not the same as using discipline. Respond to that or fuck off.

[Losty]

I wouldn't do the same. Every time someone brings this kind of situation up, I fail to understand why a person wouldn't just grab their son's hand instead of slapping it.

To be fair, I can understand that the urgency of the situation requires force. But this is a situation that has nothing to do with discipline. Which is what this thread is concerning.

I mean, I'm not saying I think it's wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me in that circumstance. When my daughter was 3 almost 4, she looked right at an oncoming car the looked at me and stepped into to the street. I jerked her out of the street by her hair. I felt awful, but it was the only thing I could reach there was no other option and it wasn't about discipline. The discipline was obvious to me, you can't be trusted to be safe so now you don't get to play outside.

[Jacob(smooth)]

didn't mean to be subtle. I am insulting your intelligence.


I'm left to assume you've no response to my point, then. Weak shit here.

Yeah, I thought that. If you can't make your point well, insult the person who doesn't agree with you.
As seen in most theist flavour trolls

[Napoléon]

Lol

Well.

I admire your evangelical zeal!

Get fucked.

However as I and others have said, the research is a bit more complex than "it's always bad". Sociological research always is. And whilst the cogency and undoubted reliability of Wikipedia is of course indisputable, and notwithstanding your strength of feeling I'm afraid reality is a little more complex than your monochrome view. One may also consider the implications of research as I'm sure the researchers do.

"It's a lot more complicated than that" - Al Murray.

On the topic of research, your charmingly polarised misstatement of my point, that "all the research must be wrong" is a little crass. As you said yourself ALL the research did not say that corperal punishment is bad in all circumstances. And, in case you missed my repeated point, there is a world of difference between beating children with a belt and smacking them.

I really just don't see why I'm continuing this. You just don't get it.

I'm sure it's true that minor physical violence can increase and become abuse.

That's because it is true.

It's also true that social drinking can escalate into alcoholism. That does not mean that social drinking is bad, and any research which considered social drinking in the same study as alcoholism would be a rather crude measure.
Not so?

Yet again you miss the point completely. This is such a fail of an analogy. To say social drinking is anywhere near similar to spanking a child is laughable.

Please don't go Napoléon. Although consistent with the theist playbook of "it's self evident" "go find the evidence yourself" and "stream of abuse" you saying "it's not Even worth debating, it's just the TRUTH" and giving u p on the conversation would be a shame. And of course would rob me of the joy your cogent and we'll thought out, if somewhatshrill, arguments

The more you call me a theist the more I am getting significantly pissed off with you. I have no interest in debating you.

Why not pick a study in particular and we can examine it in detail. See if it really shows what you think it shows? .

Why not do it yourself?


With that, I'm really done with this. I started off only giving my two cents and have only tried to correct the idiocy people in this thread have displayed. Whoever wants to carry on believing that corporal punishment, and spanking is okay, well more fool you. It's your kids I feel sorry for.

[Napoléon]

Yeah, I thought that. If you can't make your point well, insult the person who doesn't agree with you.
As seen in most theist flavour trolls

You may have a point with this theistic bullshit if my insults were the basis of my argument. But you flagrantly ignore my points and continue in your own ignorance. Fuck off. Seriously.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wouldn't do the same. Every time someone brings this kind of situation up, I fail to understand why a person wouldn't just grab their son's hand instead of slapping it.

Perhaps you're right. I review everything I do as a parent, and I don't always live up to what I think is the optimal solution. It was what I did, in the moment, and this is the sort of corporal punishment I've inflicted on my son, in most instances -- again, never required very often. I suppose I reacted as I did for speed's sake.

[Cato]

Some parents fail to realize that children are future adults and turn them into some form of project and never leave childhood... becoming the present-day generation of 20 to 30-somethings which still think the world owes them everything, while all they do is pout.

I agree with just about everything you said, but wanted to clarify that the 5 minute comment was meant tongue in cheek. Like you I am not constantly in the same room with my grandson, but I also accept the risk understanding the trade-off of nurturing independence of a sort.

I laughed when you talked about 'things getting too quiet'; silent alarm of sorts. I translate this as the child knowing exactly what's considered acceptable and what's not. The game becomes more fun in a few years when they figure out making routine noise while being devious.

I always despised the 'raising children' idea. As you pointed out we raise future adults. That in mind, it's never too early to start developing critical thinking skills. I never accepted "I don't know" as an explanation for why the child's self described reason for behavior or desire.

Example. Recent dialogue after my grandson came crying claiming the cat scratched him on the forehead, which was obvious...
Me: Why did the cat scratch you?
Grandson: I don't know.
Me: You don't know or you don't want to tell me? I can't help keep it from happening again unless I know how it happened.
Grandson: I was just petting him and he scratched me for no reason.
Me: Were you just petting him or did you pick him up to pet him?
Grandson: I picked him up.
Me: Did he try to jump down?
Grandson: Yes.
Me: Did you let him go like we talked about?
Grandson: No. (while starting to sob again)
Me: So, why did the cat scratch you?
Grandson: I didn't let him go.
Following a nod and understanding hug...
Grandson: He won't scratch if I pick him up and pet him, but he will if I don't let him go when he wants?
Me: Yes, do I need to punish the cat for scratching you?
Grandson: No. I should have let him go. (pauses) Can I have an ice pop?

[Thumpalumpacus]

There wasn't a point to respond to.

There was. Your denying it doesn't remove it.

I'm having civil discussion, if you are offended by my calling you stupid. Too bad. I'm offended by the fact that you think it's okay to hurt your own children. Nuanced thought? That's a laugh coming from someone so stupid.

I'm not offended by anything you say; you seem to have missed this point too, which is that I don't really care what you think of me. However, the fact that you think hurling invective is civil says much more about you than it does about me, or anyone else you insult.

Admittedly my own analogy wasn't exactly relevant, I've since updated to make the point more so.

Is it worth my while to scroll back, or is it more angry insult? I won't waste the effort on the latter.

Still, you haven't responded to any of my points with anything but deflection. Quit whining about being called stupid and comprehend what I've said. Your scenario is not the same as using discipline. Respond to that or fuck off.

Firstly, I'm not "whining"; I'm pointing out your willingness to resort immediately to ad hom. That is a fact that should be noted. I don't care what opinion you hold of me.

The portion I've emphasized above is exactly why I wrote "So close, yet so far away" -- because my underlying point in all my posting in this thread has been that spanking, discipline, and abuse are different behaviors, and that many people equate any physical rebuke as "spanking" or "abuse" and thereby decry them all in the same breath.

You seem to get that, but I really dislike the way you come across and won't waste my time or yours any more on a conversation with such a bitter undertone, from your side, at least. I prefer agreeable disagreement, and you apparently don't.

It's all good. Hope your day gets better, bud.

---

To be fair, I can understand that the urgency of the situation requires force. But this is a situation that has nothing to do with discipline. Which is what this thread is concerning.

I mean, I'm not saying I think it's wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me in that circumstance. When my daughter was 3 almost 4, she looked right at an oncoming car the looked at me and stepped into to the street. I jerked her out of the street by her hair. I felt awful, but it was the only thing I could reach there was no other option and it wasn't about discipline. The discipline was obvious to me, you can't be trusted to be safe so now you don't get to play outside.

Indeed. In the instance I mentioned, the discipline was that he was not allowed in the kitchen until he showed me he could behave responsibly there.

[Losty]

I wouldn't do the same. Every time someone brings this kind of situation up, I fail to understand why a person wouldn't just grab their son's hand instead of slapping it.

Perhaps you're right. I review everything I do as a parent, and I don't always live up to what I think is the optimal solution. It was what I did, in the moment, and this is the sort of corporal punishment I've inflicted on my son, in most instances -- again, never required very often. I suppose I reacted as I did for speed's sake.

What you did wasn't punishment. You reacted instinctually to protect your child. I wasn't trying to imply that I thought what you did was wrong. I was just saying I have a hard time understanding why people's gut reaction is to slap the hand away instead of something less violent. Whatever you did, you stopped your baby from getting severely burned so I'd say you made the right choice regardless of whether I would have done it the same way.