Christians. Could you be wrong?

[ShaMan]

Why would I want to change?

Because you said you're still growing and learning. Growth often includes change.

The important thing about what I said is I try to live a moral and right live, I neversaid I had actually achieved, I never will.

(emphasis added)

[Huggy Bear]

obviously you never bothered reading my other posts, even science acknowledges healing can occur based on belief, otherwise known as the "placebo effect".

I already posted the article from the Scientific American...go read it.

And yet again you mischaracterize the science behind it. We don't know why the placebo effect works, so stop saying you have the answer. The observation is that certain recovery can happen in certain situations that are not fully explained by science right now. Just saying "they get healed because they believe it" is what you tell a kindergartner who is first learning about placebo effect. And you certainly can't take the unknown mechanism of the placebo effect and extrapolate it to miracles and other horseshit like that.

I'm not mischaracterizing anything, that is exactly what the article states http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...-the-mind/

http://web.as.uky.edu/statistics/users/r...oStudy.pdf

As Mr. Wright’s experience illustrates, a patient’s expectations and beliefs can greatly affect the
course of an illness

[FatAndFaithless]

As Mr. Wright’s experience illustrates, a patient’s expectations and beliefs can greatly affect the
course of an illness

Yes, you are. The conclusion is that expectations and beliefs can affect these things. We don't know how, we don't know why, we don't know the mechanism or the precise conditions of the mechanism. It's an unknown. It can't be applied to your fantasy miracles.

[Huggy Bear]

Yes, you are. The conclusion is that expectations and beliefs can affect these things. We don't know how, we don't know why, we don't know the mechanism or the precise conditions of the mechanism. It's an unknown. It can't be applied to your fantasy miracles.

Ok genius, if it's an unknown, how can you say for certain?

definition of miracle:

miracle
noun
1.
an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

definition of supernatural

supernatural
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

Being unable to be explained scientifically is the very definition of supernatural.

[C4RM5]

Why would I want to change?

Because you said you're still growing and learning. Growth often includes change.

The important thing about what I said is I try to live a moral and right live, I neversaid I had actually achieved, I never will.

(emphasis added)

I mean why would I give up my religion.

[FatAndFaithless]

Yes, you are. The conclusion is that expectations and beliefs can affect these things. We don't know how, we don't know why, we don't know the mechanism or the precise conditions of the mechanism. It's an unknown. It can't be applied to your fantasy miracles.

Ok genius, if it's an unknown, how can you say for certain?

definition of miracle:

miracle
noun
1.
an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

definition of supernatural

supernatural
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

Being unable to be explained scientifically is the very definition of supernatural.

Well, first off, linking dictionary definitions isn't worth shit here, different dictionaries have different definitions and words can have different definitions in different circumstances. So, ignoring that part of your post...

I'm not certain. I literally said it's unkown. Could it be a miracle? I dunno, but seeing as we don't know how the mechanism does work, it would be intellectually dishonest to say you know how it works and that it's a miracle.

Also, if your definition of a miracle is just 'that which can't be explained by science', then every phenomena in history would've been considered a miracle up until the point that science could explain it. Gravity? Miraculous, until Newton described and understood it. Lightning? Well, couldn't be explained by science for a looong time, was it a miracle until then? Science has a centuries-long resume of pushing the definition of 'miracle' back and back into smaller and smaller realms, as we gain more and more understanding about the world and how it works. You're clinging to one of the last areas that science hasn't been able to penetrate and define, and calling it miracle with about as much justification as the Greek pointing to a lightning bolt and calling it Zeus.

You're saying "since I can't see a scientific explanation for it, therefore miracle". That is the crystallization of the argument from ignorance, and it's one of theism's most prevalent fallacies.

[ShaMan]

I mean why would I give up my religion.

Because you're probably a fine person without it. I was a christian for many years. Now that I'm no longer a christian, I'm a much kinder, more patient, and more genuinely sincere person than I ever had any hope of becoming as a christian. Christianity discourages growth in favor of tradition. Growth is where real transformation happens.

[FatAndFaithless]

I mean why would I give up my religion.

Because you're probably a fine person without it. I was a christian for many years. Now that I'm no longer a christian, I'm a much kinder, more patient, and more genuinely sincere person than I ever had any hope of becoming as a christian. Christianity discourages growth in favor of tradition. Growth is where real transformation happens.

Even if you do hate me for being a non-bacon sandwich lover..

[C4RM5]

I mean why would I give up my religion.

Because you're probably a fine person without it. I was a christian for many years. Now that I'm no longer a christian, I'm a much kinder, more patient, and more genuinely sincere person than I ever had any hope of becoming as a christian. Christianity discourages growth in favor of tradition. Growth is where real transformation happens.

I don't believe that, I mean Christianity has helped me realise my problems had sins so that I rarely ever do them. I believe I am growing in Christ, following his examples in areas of life. I could never imagine life without Christ.

[FatAndFaithless]

Because you're probably a fine person without it. I was a christian for many years. Now that I'm no longer a christian, I'm a much kinder, more patient, and more genuinely sincere person than I ever had any hope of becoming as a christian. Christianity discourages growth in favor of tradition. Growth is where real transformation happens.

I don't believe that, I mean Christianity has helped me realise my problems had sins so that I rarely ever do them. I believe I am growing in Christ, following his examples in areas of life. I could never imagine life without Christ.

What about ShaMan though? He has had a better life since he stopped following Christ. Do..you think he's lying?