Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?

[LarissaAnn]

Because God is a dick to women, simple as that lol

I agree but that is hardly a way to draw a theist in so that you can convince him. Unless that is not your purpose for posting.

Many atheists against Christians and just as many Christians against me just jump in to throw a stone, so to speak, but do not bother to show any kind of convincing argument.

You doing so does not give those who look for good moral arguments, like me, any ammunition to use against theists.

If you do not train the young minds who lurk about as to how to fight foolish theists, -- who will?

I see that as my duty to society and I hope you can see it as that as well.

Regards
DL

Oh yeah lol I posted that just as my own blunt opinion for humor sake, that's not what I'd use to debate a theist with lol

[Brian37]

Which should, by the logic Drich just presented, preclude god from teaching, making the new testament sinful...

But please do spin around and give us the usual "spiritual death" nonsense, Drich. I'm sure we'll all ignore that it isn't present in the text at all!

Adam and Eve before the fall were immortal. Once the ate the forbidden fruit, their imortal lives ended. They died. Perhaps in a spiritual sense as well, but their physical immortality their life up to that point ended.

Drich, regurgitating the story is missing the point. You would like this story to be moral but it is not.

If someone lacks knowledge that you have it is unfair of you to force them into a situation they had no choice in being in then blame them for your own actions. Eve did not set up the garden or the tree or the snake, god did, and did so in a bet with Satan without her knowledge or consent, which made her mere property, a pawn, a poker chip.

God blames her for the game he set up. It would be no different than knocking over the monopoly board in and she is the mere shoe unaware that he was going to do that anyway.

You rig the bet and know who will win and make the poker chip the looser you are a dick.

[Thumpalumpacus]

My last went right over your head I see.

It didn't go over my head. I don't agree with it. That's a different kettle of fish. surely you're intelligent enough to understand the difference, but if you need help, just ask; I'll happily oblige, so long as you shitcan the condescension.

Let me try another tack since you will not recognize that you should try to love your neighbor.

Love is a special and intimate emotion I do not extend to strangers.

Do you not seek justice for those in your country? Is equality not a pert of justice?

Change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that females in the church choose their lot. If a church, any church, tries to promulgate its beliefs through legislation, of course I will speak up. But for women who willingly accept subservience, what would you suggest I do? Kidnap and deprogram them? Freedom of conscience means that people are free to be as stupid as they wish.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

Regards
DL

This quote is a non-sequitur in the context of our discussion, because as you may have noticed, we aren't gathering women up and entraining them to camps where they are gassed to death.

[Greatest I am]

Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?

Romans 5:12. Sin entered the world through one man [Adam]. Not exempt. His punishment:

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

Being discussed here

I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.

By what authority are you making that claim?

Why then did God favor the guiltiest, Adam, with, --- he shall rule over you?

Who was 'guiltiest' is not the determining factor. Read up on federal headship.

Men rule over women? Why when men were not deceived but disobeyed?

Not rule, federal headship.

What was the transgression, --- if not a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom and shun immortality of the flesh, --- even if that were possible, --- and why was Adan not punished as hard as Eve when he was clearly more guilty?

Regards
DL

Are you claiming that it was a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom over God's word?

orangebox21

“Romans 5:12. Sin entered the world through one man [Adam]. Not exempt. His punishment:”

Does this quote hold more or less power than yours and why?

Ecclesiasticus Chapter 25; 24 Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.

Also, I did not say that Adam was not punished, he was, but not nearly as badly as Eve who he gained dominion over while she basically became his slave.

I note your “Not rule, federal headship.” be low and your semantics does not change the facts that Eve was to forever be subordinate to Adam.

She therefore, along with the other punishments, bore more punishment than Adam while he bore more of the transgression.
--------------------------------------

Greatest I am Wrote:
I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.

Your reply.
“By what authority are you making that claim?”

Why would I need anyone’s authority to opine on scriptures?
Do you go running for authority before you opined on this O.P.?

Who was it?

----------------------------------------

“Who was 'guiltiest' is not the determining factor.”

Interesting. What other factor would you use to determine a sentence if not the guiltiest get the most severe sentence?

Show where and why you would punish more harshly the less guilty pleas.

-----------------------------------------

“Are you claiming that it was a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom over God's word?”

Absolutely.

God’s WORD and almost all God can know is in the tree of knowledge. They chose his WORD and that is why God said they became as Gods.

Tell us what is wrong with becoming like God when scriptures tell us to do just that.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do you think A & E should have remained with their eyes closed, not even knowing they are naked and thus not able to reproduce?

Regards
DL

---

[

Oh yeah lol I posted that just as my own blunt opinion for humor sake, that's not what I'd use to debate a theist with lol

Sweet. Fight on.

I need say no more.

Regards
DL

---

My last went right over your head I see.

It didn't go over my head. I don't agree with it. That's a different kettle of fish. surely you're intelligent enough to understand the difference, but if you need help, just ask; I'll happily oblige, so long as you shitcan the condescension.

Let me try another tack since you will not recognize that you should try to love your neighbor.

Love is a special and intimate emotion I do not extend to strangers.

Do you not seek justice for those in your country? Is equality not a pert of justice?

Change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that females in the church choose their lot. If a church, any church, tries to promulgate its beliefs through legislation, of course I will speak up. But for women who willingly accept subservience, what would you suggest I do? Kidnap and deprogram them? Freedom of conscience means that people are free to be as stupid as they wish.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

Regards
DL

This quote is a non-sequitur in the context of our discussion, because as you may have noticed, we aren't gathering women up and entraining them to camps where they are gassed to death.

True on the gas but what they face is just as vile because they cannot even escape their servitude in death.

We are letting the churches indoctrinate children into a mind set where as female adults, they allow themselves to be subjugated to men.

It is my duty to fight that when I can but if you do not see that duty in yourself then that is your decision.

Do not cry if they come for your daughters of grand daughters and they are not granted equal rights and equality that their men enjoy.

Regards
DL

[Cyberman]

Are you claiming that it was a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom over God's word?

I recommend re-reading what you wrote to see if you can spot the astonishingly glaring and revealing error.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Do not cry if they come for your daughters of grand daughters and they are not granted equal rights and equality that their men enjoy.

Regards
DL

Firstly, I am not against equal rights for women, so please, abandon that strawman.

What I am arguing against here is the notion that women who voluntarily remain in a religion that subjugates them require my undesired assistance in saving them from themselves.

In the matters of law and society I of course cast my votes with an eye to the candidate's stance on issues of equality of gender, race, ethnicity, and broader freedoms in general; but in personal matters such as religion, it is not my business to tell anyone else how to live, unless --

I raised my son to be cognizant of discrimination and bigotry, and made it plain that his acceptance of those sorts of standards would come at the price of my respect. Seems to have worked.

Had I instead had a daughter, I certainly would have taught her that she is no one's servant, and that accepting subservience would come at the price of my respect. I think that would have worked.

Finally -- rights are not granted ... they are seized.

[orangebox21]

“Romans 5:12. Sin entered the world through one man [Adam]. Not exempt. His punishment:”

Does this quote hold more or less power than yours and why?

Not sure what you're asking here?

Ecclesiasticus Chapter 25; 24 Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.

Not scripture. If sin did not enter the world through the one man [Adam] then how can forgiveness enter the world through one man [Jesus]? Ecclesiasticus denies the doctrine of salvation.

Also, I did not say that Adam was not punished, he was, but not nearly as badly as Eve who he gained dominion over while she basically became his slave.

God gave Adam dominion over the material world. Where in Genesis did God give Adam dominion over Eve?

I note your “Not rule, federal headship.” be low and your semantics does not change the facts that Eve was to forever be subordinate to Adam.

Do you know what federal headship is?

She therefore, along with the other punishments, bore more punishment than Adam while he bore more of the transgression.

What standard are you using to compare the punishments between the two?
--------------------------------------

I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.

Your reply.
“By what authority are you making that claim?”

Why would I need anyone’s authority to opine on scriptures?
Do you go running for authority before you opined on this O.P.?

Who was it?

Let me rephrase, what reason do you have for making the claim that Eve's punishment was greater than Adam's?
----------------------------------------

“Who was 'guiltiest' is not the determining factor.”

Interesting. What other factor would you use to determine a sentence if not the guiltiest get the most severe sentence?

Show where and why you would punish more harshly the less guilty pleas.

I have not argued that Eve's sin and punishment were any greater or less than Adam's. This is a position that you have taken. 'Who is the guiltiest' is not the determining factor in federal headship.
-----------------------------------------

“Are you claiming that it was a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom over God's word?”

Absolutely.

There is a way that seems right to a man in his own mind but the end is death.

God’s WORD and almost all God can know is in the tree of knowledge. They chose his WORD and that is why God said they became as Gods.

It is written the tree contained the knowledge of good and evil, not 'almost all God can know'.

Tell us what is wrong with becoming like God when scriptures tell us to do just that.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Which is more perfect, obedience to the will of the Father, or choosing our own way?

Do you think A & E should have remained with their eyes closed, not even knowing they are naked and thus not able to reproduce?

Regards
DL

Is your claim that without the knowledge of what it means to be naked, they wouldn't be able to reproduce?

---

Are you claiming that it was a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom over God's word?

I recommend re-reading what you wrote to see if you can spot the astonishingly glaring and revealing error.

Not all idols are carved from wood and stone.

20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Esquilax]

Which should, by the logic Drich just presented, preclude god from teaching, making the new testament sinful...

But please do spin around and give us the usual "spiritual death" nonsense, Drich. I'm sure we'll all ignore that it isn't present in the text at all!

Adam and Eve before the fall were immortal. Once the ate the forbidden fruit, their imortal lives ended. They died. Perhaps in a spiritual sense as well, but their physical immortality their life up to that point ended.

Ohhh, so you mean they "died" in the sense that they "lived," then? And apparently lived for a lot longer than normal humans do today, too!

What does the term death even mean, if you're going to apply it to literally the exact opposite of what it means?

Oh, and incidentally, where in the scriptures do you get this idea, anyway? Because surely you didn't just make it up to cover for a lot hole, right?

[Lek]

Adam and Eve before the fall were immortal. Once the ate the forbidden fruit, their imortal lives ended. They died. Perhaps in a spiritual sense as well, but their physical immortality their life up to that point ended.

Ohhh, so you mean they "died" in the sense that they "lived," then? And apparently lived for a lot longer than normal humans do today, too!

What does the term death even mean, if you're going to apply it to literally the exact opposite of what it means?

Oh, and incidentally, where in the scriptures do you get this idea, anyway? Because surely you didn't just make it up to cover for a lot hole, right?

They did die in a spiritual sense. They were destined for eternal death in hell rather than eternal life with God. The bible often speaks of spiritual death. Romans 6:11-13 NIV:

"11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life;"

Why would the writer of Genesis say that they died a spiritual death and go on to tell about their lives after leaving the garden of eden?

[Greatest I am]

Do not cry if they come for your daughters of grand daughters and they are not granted equal rights and equality that their men enjoy.

Regards
DL

Firstly, I am not against equal rights for women, so please, abandon that strawman.

What I am arguing against here is the notion that women who voluntarily remain in a religion that subjugates them require my undesired assistance in saving them from themselves.

In the matters of law and society I of course cast my votes with an eye to the candidate's stance on issues of equality of gender, race, ethnicity, and broader freedoms in general; but in personal matters such as religion, it is not my business to tell anyone else how to live, unless --

I raised my son to be cognizant of discrimination and bigotry, and made it plain that his acceptance of those sorts of standards would come at the price of my respect. Seems to have worked.

Had I instead had a daughter, I certainly would have taught her that she is no one's servant, and that accepting subservience would come at the price of my respect. I think that would have worked.

Finally -- rights are not granted ... they are seized.

Indeed.

But what is the first duty of one who has seized it, if mot to insure that all enjoy the same freedom of thought and action?

For evil to grow etc. , my friend.

Regards
DL

---

Orangebox

You bobbed and weaved so far and wide there that you went right out of sight.

You do not seem to recognize that almost all things and concepts are subject to good and evil and that that is why many theorize that the tree of knowledge is the tree of knowledge of almost everything.

Try to name three exceptions to this and you will be enlightened.

If you cannot recognize that then I do not know what else to tell you.

God's command of do not gain knowledge cannot be argued to be a good command. It was thus an evil command and Eve was justified in ignoring. it.

Regards
DL