General questions about the Christian idea of God and love

[ShaMan]

Silly

God loves sinners. That's why he cares enough to send them to eternal torture for a crime he committed.

Atheists just can't seem to grasp this wisdom

[vorlon13]

Can't we see religious differences here solved an old fashioned way ??

Maybe an inquisition, or dunking in freezing brine. Slaughter a wee sheepie and examine the entrails.

Or maybe go back to a classic, burn the house to the ground, slay the male off spring, steal the livestock, rape the women, and poison the well ???

[fr0d0]

He hates the sin and not the sinner. Always the choice belongs to the individual. Like a criminal committing a crime, you expect justice. If no one cared, criminality would go unpunished. Its really not that difficult to understand.

[genkaus]

He hates the sin and not the sinner.

According to Drich:

Without a doubt their is indeed a 'Christian doctrine' that says God loves everyone without condition. "God hates the sin loves the sinner." This is an empty Christian platitude, ( not found anywhere in the bible) it directly contradicts what is actually written in the bible concerning God's feelings towards some of us.

Care to address his argument and prove him wrong?

[fr0d0]

I already did I believe genkaus. "Without condition" would be inaccurate. The love is always given, otherwise how does Jesus saving sinners such as the proustite work? A person rejects Gods love and reaps the reward, which is Gods just wrath. If the person chooses to turn around from their rebellion, God, in his infinite mercy shows them love. I hope that's clearer.

[ShaMan]

Christian apologetic arguments are as clear as mud.

[genkaus]

I already did I believe genkaus. "Without condition" would be inaccurate. The love is always given, otherwise how does Jesus saving sinners such as the proustite work? A person rejects Gods love and reaps the reward, which is Gods just wrath. If the person chooses to turn around from their rebellion, God, in his infinite mercy shows them love. I hope that's clearer.

So, you accept Drich's proposition that "God hates the sin loves the sinner" is an empty platitude?

[Drich]

Silly

God loves sinners. That's why he cares enough to send them to eternal torture for a crime he committed.

Atheists just can't seem to grasp this wisdom

Why would God send those He loves to Hell? Appearently some 'atheists' really can't grasp the concept that God does not love everyone. There are those whom God hates. Those he sends to Hell.

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Can't we see religious differences here solved an old fashioned way ??

Maybe an inquisition, or dunking in freezing brine. Slaughter a wee sheepie and examine the entrails.

Or maybe go back to a classic, burn the house to the ground, slay the male off spring, steal the livestock, rape the women, and poison the well ???

This is man at his best. Unless you can find some book chapter and verse instructing such behavior know In Your heart that you like the rest of us can and have justified this type of behavior when and if our collective 'morality' will allow it.

Just so you are not confused, if what I am saying is if you can not find a biblical command that has God telling Christians to do the things you listed, then know with all the self righteousness it took you to bring this up, God is not the cause of these acts, even if they were done in His name. The cause was what you currently rally behind, what the Germans rallied behind in Hitler's Germany, what the Chinese and the Russians rallied behind when they went on their destructive rampages that had nothing to do with God. It's man's morality.

Mans morality can be twisted to do anything his heart truly desires. God/bible is the only point of contrast between what you think right and wrong is and what actual right and wrong is. It is what re centers us once we follow men like hitler.

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I already did I believe genkaus. "Without condition" would be inaccurate. The love is always given, otherwise how does Jesus saving sinners such as the proustite work? A person rejects Gods love and reaps the reward, which is Gods just wrath. If the person chooses to turn around from their rebellion, God, in his infinite mercy shows them love. I hope that's clearer.

So, you accept Drich's proposition that "God hates the sin loves the sinner" is an empty platitude?

"Biblically unsupported platitude."

[fr0d0]

You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love (agapēseis) your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love (agapāte) your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?

—Matthew 5:43-46, RSV

In loving your enemies you are mimicking God who loves his enemies.

"Unconditional love" is a modern translation of the word 'agape'. A being who's prime attribute is love can't hate.

“But God demonstrates His own (agape) love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Rom 5:8)

If we were still sinners then he hated us and condemned us to hell. If he didn't condemn us to hell, then he didn't hate us.

[genkaus]

Why would God send those He loves to Hell?

According to Frodo - "because its somehow the just thing to do"

Appearently some 'atheists' really can't grasp the concept that God does not love everyone.

No, atheists are fine with the idea that your god is a misanthrope. Its the Christians who keep saying that he loves everyone.

There are those whom God hates.

Care to convince Fr0d0 of that?

Just so you are not confused, if what I am saying is if you can not find a biblical command that has God telling Christians to do the things you listed,

Are you saying that Saumuel 15:3 doesn't count because it wasn't issued to Christians?

God is not the cause of these acts,

Given the very question of his existence - I'd agree.

The cause was what you currently rally behind, what the Germans rallied behind in Hitler's Germany, what the Chinese and the Russians rallied behind when they went on their destructive rampages that had nothing to do with God. It's man's morality.

Actually, that would be absolutist, irrational and authoritarian morality - that is what the Germans and Chinese and Russians rallied behind. And guess what, your god's morality is absolutist, irrational and authoritarian. You are the one who rallies behind them.

Mans morality can be twisted to do anything his heart truly desires.

Not if its rational.

God/bible is the only point of contrast between what you think right and wrong is and what actual right and wrong is.

Yes, god's/biblical morality is subjective and open to interpretation and any actual right and wrong would require an objective morality.

"Biblically unsupported platitude."

Is that a correction? Because you did say "empty" before.

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You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love (agapēseis) your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love (agapāte) your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?

—Matthew 5:43-46, RSV

In loving your enemies you are mimicking God who loves his enemies.

"Unconditional love" is a modern translation of the word 'agape'. A being who's prime attribute is love can't hate.

“But God demonstrates His own (agape) love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Rom 5:8)

If we were still sinners then he hated us and condemned us to hell. If he didn't condemn us to hell, then he didn't hate us.

Well, sounds like Biblical justification for why your god can't hate?

But then, what about the biblical justification Drich gave about why he does hate? Where did he go wrong?