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(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: 1. I'm a Gentleman, not a Lady.
Oh sorry. Is just that in latin-america Celestine is a more common name to women than to men. I've heard of many women called Celestine…but is very rare to find a man named Celestine in here.
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: 2. Yes there were a few atheists in ancient times, but that is besides the point.
Well considering that you have overlooked all the effort that atheists have made in order to separate the good values from religion to make them more noticeable. I don't think it has nothing to do with this.
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: 3. Atheists are disorganized, there is no institution to promote the observance of these virtues aside from individual interest.
Yeah sure I mean it's not like we have:
Atheist Organizations:
The Freedom from Religion Foundation - despite being run as a family business, this is the largest, most
active and most effective atheist organization in the U.S.
The Secular Student Alliance - an impressively active association of mostly college groups.
Atheists for Human Rights - a hard-working and sincere organization based in Minnesota, created "because
so many violations of human rights have their source in religious authoritarianism."
The Center for Inquiry - "The mission of the Center for Inquiry is to foster a secular society based on
science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values." The Center for Inquiry is the parent organization of
the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and the Council for Secular Humanism.
The Secular Coalition for America - A coalition of groups. The "purpose in founding the coalition was to
formalize a cooperative structure for visible, unified activism to improve the civic situation of citizens with a
naturalistic worldview."
The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers - A community support network that connects
atheist, humanist, agnostic, freethinker, or other secular minority military members from around the world with
each other and with local organizations.
Atheist Alliance International - intended as an umbrella group of atheist organizations, "AAI's vision is to
transform society into one that supports and respects a worldview based on the values of reason, empiricism
and naturalism, and respects and protects the separation of religion and government."
American Atheists - Founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair in 1963, American Atheists is one of America's
oldest atheist organizations. Although no longer at the forefront of advocacy, it remains historically interesting.
the brights - A bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview . . . free of supernatural and mystical
elements." A hybrid of atheism and humanism, with a hopefully empowering new name.
Freethought Society - formerly a local organization now expanding to national service, the goal of the
Freethought Society is to raise awareness and acceptance of the nontheist community. Headed by Margaret
Downey, the FT Society features the valuable Anti-Discrimination Support Network that seeks to protect
atheists from discrimination.
Center for Naturalism - "The Center for Naturalism promotes science-based naturalism as a comprehensive
worldview--a rational and fulfilling alternative to faith-based religions and other varieties of supernaturalism."
Humanist Organizations:
American Humanist Association - The largest Humanist organization in the U.S., AHA "strive[s] to bring
about a progressive society where being good without gods is an accepted way to live life. We are
accomplishing this through our defense of civil liberties and secular governance, by our outreach to the
growing number of people without traditional religious faith, and through a continued refinement and
advancement of the humanist worldview."
LGBT Humanist Council - The LGBT Humanist Council, a project of the American Humanist Association, is a
forum for LGBT humanists from across the country to exchange ideas on local organizing, find support in
coming out as LGBT (and a humanist), and to speak out with once voice on issues of concern to the
LGBT-humanist community.
Council for Secular Humanism - With more of a secular touch than the American Humanist Association, the
Council for Secular Humanism incorporates: A naturalistic philosophy, A cosmic outlook rooted in science, and
a consequentialist ethical system.
American Ethical Union - A member of the Secular Coalition, AEU promotes "Ethical Culture. . . a humanistic
religious and educational movement inspired by the ideal that the supreme aim of human life is working to
create a more humane society.
Camp Quest - funded in part by the Institute for Humanist Studies (a program of the American Humanist
Association),"Camp Quest is the first residential summer camp in the history of the United States for the
children of Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who
hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view.
Foundation Beyond Belief - an charitable giving organization funded by atheists and humanists which
strives to "demonstrate humanism at its best by supporting efforts to improve this world and this life and to
challenge humanists to embody the highest principles of humanism, including mutual care and responsibility."
Huumanists - The extra U indicates Unitarian. An organization of humanist unitarians.
International Darwin Day Foundation - provides resources and publicity for individuals and institutions
across the world to celebrate science and humanity every year, on, or near, February 12, Darwin's birthday.
Allied Organizations:
Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) - committed to U.S. church-state separation,
AU is composed of both religionists and atheists. Warning: When I signed up for AU I began receiving an
inordinate quantity of junk mail. AU ignored two letters requesting that they stop distributing my personal
information. I have quit AU, but the junk mail keeps coming. Do not join unless you enjoy receiving junk mail.
American Civil Liberties Union - The ACLU strives to "defend and preserve the individual rights and
liberties that the Constitution and laws of the United States guarantee everyone in this country."
Anti-Defamation League - Although a religionist group, the ADL can serve as an ally in battling Christian
domination and defending the separation of church and state. "The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) fights
anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry in the U.S. and abroad through information, education, legislation, and
advocacy."
International Organizations:
Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (International based in UK) - [Our mission is to]
support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the
quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and human suffering." Home of the "out
campaign," encouraging atheists to live openly.
Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society (International based in US) - "We are secular Muslims,
and secular persons of Muslim societies. . . . We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We
believe in the equality of all human persons. We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the
observance of universal human rights." Sponsored by the U.S. based Center for Inquiry.
International League of Humanists (International founded in Croatia) - "International League of Humanists
was established with intention and wishes to resolve numerous peace related issues. The goal and objectives
of the ILH are to realize plans related to peace all over the world in its full meaning."
International Humanist and Ethical Union (International, based in UK) - "IHEU is the world union of more
than 100 Humanist, rationalist, laïque, ethical culture, atheist and freethought organisations in over 40
countries. Our mission is to represent and support the worldwide Humanist movement."
Rationalist International (International, based in India) - "Rationalist International is a forum for rationalist
ideas and positions of world-wide concern. It aims at representing the rationalist view where public opinion is
formed and making the voice of reason heard and considered, where decisions are taken which will shape our
future."
International League of Non-Religious and Atheists (International, based in Germany) - "Non-religious
[join] to stand up for freedom of religion and the freedom of one's personal view of life, as well as to decidedly
defend their political interests.
New Atheist Movement (Canada) - A Humanist organization for the promotion of Science, Reason,
Skepticism, Secularism and a Naturalistic Worldview, with a sub-goal of uniting secular universities.
National Secular Society (UK) - "The National Secular Society was founded in 1866 [and asserts that] this is
the only life we have, and that we should work for its improvement."
Atheist Centre (INDIA) - "Atheist Centre is a social change organization striving for eradication of
superstitions, inculcating rational, scientific and secular outlook for spreading positive atheism and humanism
as a way of life."
Philippine Atheists - a community of Phillippine atheists celebrating freedom from religion.
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: Religion however does have the ability to speak to a large crowd of people and to motivate them to do stuff.
So does science.
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: Often many claim an authority that they do not have and use their influence for their own benefit instead of the benefit of the people.
Agreed.
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: Were we atheists to have a 'school' for the the observance and practice of these virtues imagine just what good we could do.
And what about all the secular schools that are out there.
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: One thing I've noticed is that there is a lot of negativity of religion on this forum,
What did you expect in a ATHEIST FORUM?!
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: I've seen many list all of the bad things that I know religion has.
That's what we all say at the beginning and then Minimalist appears with another news that makes us realize that we haven't seen the half of it.
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: I have not seen, however, people listing some of the good things religion has.
Well what can we say, most of us support a world without religion therefore we encourage people to see that we can achieve everything that religion does. Which basically leaves no reason whatsoever to still approve religious afterwards.
(September 19, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Yeah sure I mean it's not like we have:
Atheist Organizations:
The Freedom from Religion Foundation - despite being run as a family business, this is the largest, most
active and most effective atheist organization in the U.S.
The Secular Student Alliance - an impressively active association of mostly college groups.
Atheists for Human Rights - a hard-working and sincere organization based in Minnesota, created "because
so many violations of human rights have their source in religious authoritarianism."
The Center for Inquiry - "The mission of the Center for Inquiry is to foster a secular society based on
science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values." The Center for Inquiry is the parent organization of
the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and the Council for Secular Humanism.
The Secular Coalition for America - A coalition of groups. The "purpose in founding the coalition was to
formalize a cooperative structure for visible, unified activism to improve the civic situation of citizens with a
naturalistic worldview."
The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers - A community support network that connects
atheist, humanist, agnostic, freethinker, or other secular minority military members from around the world with
each other and with local organizations.
Atheist Alliance International - intended as an umbrella group of atheist organizations, "AAI's vision is to
transform society into one that supports and respects a worldview based on the values of reason, empiricism
and naturalism, and respects and protects the separation of religion and government."
American Atheists - Founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair in 1963, American Atheists is one of America's
oldest atheist organizations. Although no longer at the forefront of advocacy, it remains historically interesting.
the brights - A bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview . . . free of supernatural and mystical
elements." A hybrid of atheism and humanism, with a hopefully empowering new name.
Freethought Society - formerly a local organization now expanding to national service, the goal of the
Freethought Society is to raise awareness and acceptance of the nontheist community. Headed by Margaret
Downey, the FT Society features the valuable Anti-Discrimination Support Network that seeks to protect
atheists from discrimination.
Center for Naturalism - "The Center for Naturalism promotes science-based naturalism as a comprehensive
worldview--a rational and fulfilling alternative to faith-based religions and other varieties of supernaturalism."
Humanist Organizations:
American Humanist Association - The largest Humanist organization in the U.S., AHA "strive[s] to bring
about a progressive society where being good without gods is an accepted way to live life. We are
accomplishing this through our defense of civil liberties and secular governance, by our outreach to the
growing number of people without traditional religious faith, and through a continued refinement and
advancement of the humanist worldview."
LGBT Humanist Council - The LGBT Humanist Council, a project of the American Humanist Association, is a
forum for LGBT humanists from across the country to exchange ideas on local organizing, find support in
coming out as LGBT (and a humanist), and to speak out with once voice on issues of concern to the
LGBT-humanist community.
Council for Secular Humanism - With more of a secular touch than the American Humanist Association, the
Council for Secular Humanism incorporates: A naturalistic philosophy, A cosmic outlook rooted in science, and
a consequentialist ethical system.
American Ethical Union - A member of the Secular Coalition, AEU promotes "Ethical Culture. . . a humanistic
religious and educational movement inspired by the ideal that the supreme aim of human life is working to
create a more humane society.
Camp Quest - funded in part by the Institute for Humanist Studies (a program of the American Humanist
Association),"Camp Quest is the first residential summer camp in the history of the United States for the
children of Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who
hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view.
Foundation Beyond Belief - an charitable giving organization funded by atheists and humanists which
strives to "demonstrate humanism at its best by supporting efforts to improve this world and this life and to
challenge humanists to embody the highest principles of humanism, including mutual care and responsibility."
Huumanists - The extra U indicates Unitarian. An organization of humanist unitarians.
International Darwin Day Foundation - provides resources and publicity for individuals and institutions
across the world to celebrate science and humanity every year, on, or near, February 12, Darwin's birthday.
Allied Organizations:
Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) - committed to U.S. church-state separation,
AU is composed of both religionists and atheists. Warning: When I signed up for AU I began receiving an
inordinate quantity of junk mail. AU ignored two letters requesting that they stop distributing my personal
information. I have quit AU, but the junk mail keeps coming. Do not join unless you enjoy receiving junk mail.
American Civil Liberties Union - The ACLU strives to "defend and preserve the individual rights and
liberties that the Constitution and laws of the United States guarantee everyone in this country."
Anti-Defamation League - Although a religionist group, the ADL can serve as an ally in battling Christian
domination and defending the separation of church and state. "The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) fights
anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry in the U.S. and abroad through information, education, legislation, and
advocacy."
International Organizations:
Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (International based in UK) - [Our mission is to]
support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the
quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and human suffering." Home of the "out
campaign," encouraging atheists to live openly.
Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society (International based in US) - "We are secular Muslims,
and secular persons of Muslim societies. . . . We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We
believe in the equality of all human persons. We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the
observance of universal human rights." Sponsored by the U.S. based Center for Inquiry.
International League of Humanists (International founded in Croatia) - "International League of Humanists
was established with intention and wishes to resolve numerous peace related issues. The goal and objectives
of the ILH are to realize plans related to peace all over the world in its full meaning."
International Humanist and Ethical Union (International, based in UK) - "IHEU is the world union of more
than 100 Humanist, rationalist, laïque, ethical culture, atheist and freethought organisations in over 40
countries. Our mission is to represent and support the worldwide Humanist movement."
Rationalist International (International, based in India) - "Rationalist International is a forum for rationalist
ideas and positions of world-wide concern. It aims at representing the rationalist view where public opinion is
formed and making the voice of reason heard and considered, where decisions are taken which will shape our
future."
International League of Non-Religious and Atheists (International, based in Germany) - "Non-religious
[join] to stand up for freedom of religion and the freedom of one's personal view of life, as well as to decidedly
defend their political interests.
New Atheist Movement (Canada) - A Humanist organization for the promotion of Science, Reason,
Skepticism, Secularism and a Naturalistic Worldview, with a sub-goal of uniting secular universities.
National Secular Society (UK) - "The National Secular Society was founded in 1866 [and asserts that] this is
the only life we have, and that we should work for its improvement."
Atheist Centre (INDIA) - "Atheist Centre is a social change organization striving for eradication of
superstitions, inculcating rational, scientific and secular outlook for spreading positive atheism and humanism
as a way of life."
Philippine Atheists - a community of Phillippine atheists celebrating freedom from religion.
And what about all the secular schools that are out there.
What did you expect in a ATHEIST FORUM?!
(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: I've seen many list all of the bad things that I know religion has.
That's what we all say at the beginning and then Minimalist appears with another news that makes us realize that we haven't seen the half of it.
Well what can we say, most of us support a world without religion therefore we encourage people to see that we can achieve everything that religion does. Which basically leaves no reason whatsoever to still approve religious afterwards.
The list you provided only had a few groups dealing with ethics, and I don't think any of those ethic groups focus on the development of ethics but rather the focus of acting on their morals for good. What I am proposing is a group which would help others become more ethical while at the same time being ethical in their daily lives. But I could be wrong as I haven't heard of any of those groups and do not know of them.
What I expected from an Atheist forum was NOT an anti-theist forum.
Minamalist can not show me anything I haven't seen before. I am not saying to be religious, I am only saying to view it objectively.
(September 19, 2014 at 10:53 pm)Celestine Wrote: The list you provided only had a few groups dealing with ethics, and I don't think any of those ethic groups focus on the development of ethics but rather the focus of acting on their morals for good. What I am proposing is a group which would help others become more ethical while at the same time being ethical in their daily lives.
If you are looking for development of ethics, then look to philosophy not religion. Philosophy provides a rational and comprehensive process for developing ethical systems rather than relying on authoritative dictates.
If you are looking for a group to help people become more moral, then look to educational institutes. Morality shouldn't be regulated or enforced but it should be taught and taught correctly.
(September 19, 2014 at 10:53 pm)Celestine Wrote: What I expected from an Atheist forum was NOT an anti-theist forum.
And now that you know what to expect....?
(September 19, 2014 at 10:53 pm)Celestine Wrote: I am not saying to be religious, I am only saying to view it objectively.
Looking at it objectively tells me that religion is useless when it comes to being moral.
September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am (This post was last modified: September 20, 2014 at 1:14 am by Celestine.)
(September 20, 2014 at 12:29 am)genkaus Wrote: If you are looking for development of ethics, then look to philosophy not religion. Philosophy provides a rational and comprehensive process for developing ethical systems rather than relying on authoritative dictates.
If you are looking for a group to help people become more moral, then look to educational institutes. Morality shouldn't be regulated or enforced but it should be taught and taught correctly.
Looking at it objectively tells me that religion is useless when it comes to being moral.
You act as though religion has had no bearing on philosophy, or that philosophy has had no bearing on religion. Were archaeologists to just look for weapons they would throw out all the important pieces of archeology. Asking me to only look at secular philosophy is like asking an archaeologist to pick only one item from an excavation that produced hundreds of times and only research that one item.
In the history of philosophy religion has played a very important role whether you like it or not and whether you think you can distinguish these as philosophies despite your own bias does not effect the fact that religion is a part of the history of philosophy.
Epicurus' philosophy had a major effect on me becoming an atheist and that's over 2,000 years old! Why then should I discount these philosophies because of their age or their entanglement with religion? You can't seem to look past the fact that I'm not interested in these religions so much as the philosophy that resides in them. Were I Christian and ignored Epicurus' philosophy just because it had to do with atheism I would have come to the conclusion of atheism at a much later date. Yet I was unbiased about it, and then afterwards for years I was like you and held a strong prejudice against religion because it was what all the cool kids were doing. Now I am over myself, and I seek to observe again that which I once did but this time with a secular opinion, is that so much of a grievance to you that you think I should abandon this expedition and that all future expeditions by others should be abandoned?
September 20, 2014 at 1:15 am (This post was last modified: September 20, 2014 at 1:18 am by The Grand Nudger.)
No ones disputing that religion has played a role. It's just that the role religion has played seems to be the foil. A long litany of things -not to do-, a never-ending list of -poor justifications-. This is a point which you yourself have helped to drive home with your examples. You're interested in what you can -cut out- of religious philosophies. What we're telling you - is that there's no need to do so. You can find what you need without the use of scissors, without any reference to religion.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(September 20, 2014 at 1:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: No ones disputing that religion has played a role. It's just that the role religion has played seems to be the foil. A long litany of things -not to do-, a never-ending list of -poor justifications-. This is a point which you yourself have helped to drive home with your examples. You're interested in what you can -cut out- of religious philosophies. What we're telling you - is that there's no need to do so. You can find what you need without the use of scissors, without any reference to religion.
The philosophies that belong to Epicurus are his alone, and no others.
September 20, 2014 at 1:37 am (This post was last modified: September 20, 2014 at 1:37 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Blue is my favorite ice cream flavor!
(how'd I do?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am)Celestine Wrote: You act as though religion has had no bearing on philosophy, or that philosophy has had no bearing on religion.
On the contrary - I'd say that religion has had no positive bearing on philosophy and the bearing of philosophy on religion is not relevant here.
(September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am)Celestine Wrote: Were archaeologists to just look for weapons they would throw out all the important pieces of archeology. Asking me to only look at secular philosophy is like asking an archaeologist to pick only one item from an excavation that produced hundreds of times and only research that one item.
If the question under consideration is "what did those people use to fight?" then looking at excavated pots and pans is irrelevant. Looking at the weapons excavated is what matters. That those pots could've also been used to bash someone is a nonsensical argument.
(September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am)Celestine Wrote: In the history of philosophy religion has played a very important role whether you like it or not and whether you think you can distinguish these as philosophies despite your own bias does not effect the fact that religion is a part of the history of philosophy.
Yes, a very negative role.
(September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am)Celestine Wrote: Epicurus' philosophy had a major effect on me becoming an atheist and that's over 2,000 years old! Why then should I discount these philosophies because of their age or their entanglement with religion?
You shouldn't - instead you should try to disentangle it from religion.
(September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am)Celestine Wrote: You can't seem to look past the fact that I'm not interested in these religions so much as the philosophy that resides in them.
Really? I thought you were looking for robust ethical systems. But if you are looking for philosophies within religion then go right ahead - I doubt if you'd find any good ones there.
(September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am)Celestine Wrote: Were I Christian and ignored Epicurus' philosophy just because it had to do with atheism I would have come to the conclusion of atheism at a much later date.
Sounds like you considered the philosophy despite your religion - not because of it.
(September 20, 2014 at 1:12 am)Celestine Wrote: Yet I was unbiased about it, and then afterwards for years I was like you and held a strong prejudice against religion because it was what all the cool kids were doing. Now I am over myself, and I seek to observe again that which I once did but this time with a secular opinion, is that so much of a grievance to you that you think I should abandon this expedition and that all future expeditions by others should be abandoned?
If you want to understand how a religion develops and spreads and changes over time, then by all means, go ahead and study it.
If, on the other hand, you are looking for robust ethical systems then don't look to religion - you'll find none there.
