Rant against anti-atheist agnostics.

[*Deidre*]

I'm trying very hard, as I usually do, to speak in everyday language avoiding clichés and Christian speak. I hate those, as I think it's very hard to understand for anyone. Mr included, from my atheist background. Bible speak is not really in my vocabulary. Rhythm here is the one using the big words. In asking for real examples in the real world, and offering answers in the same vein. I've challenged simple example with logic. As rationally as I can. If you can find logical fault, then I'd love to hear it. Your post in particular is full of Christian rhetoric.

Okay. You stated above a few posts, that God doesn't send people to hell, that we choose it. I'm paraphrasing.

That's illogical, as there's no objective proof of a god as far as all can tell, and if one should exist, there's no proof that he created heaven/hell, etc. It's illogical to take your opinion or your faith beliefs, and hand them to me as fact.

[fr0d0]

1) What do you mean by literal mistranslation of Genesis?
2) What am I being forgiven for?

For a full answer, see the book by John H Walton (no relation haha): the lost world of genesis one.
Short answer: genesis deals with function and setting up the scene for God at the controls. The story follows that pattern, rather than one where cosmos and origins would be. It matches comparative religions of the time. Pseudo literalists insist that this was an exact date in history with precise days where a man was made out of mud. This is utter garbage. Walton makes his point thoroughly and respectfully. Note that no other contending scenarios offer any support for their ideas.

You're being forgiven for what you might hold yourself back for. Guilt, for example. Holding on to hatred. Lying. I dunno. Those things suck the life out of you. You're not functioning as well as you might. All of those things could possibly be resolved naturally, by making amends with the injured party. If they can't, you're left with the life draining burden.

---

That's illogical, as there's no objective proof of a god as far as all can tell, and if one should exist, there's no proof that he created heaven/hell, etc. It's illogical to take your opinion or your faith beliefs, and hand them to me as fact.

I never claimed that there was objective proof of God, in fact I claim that there can't be. All this is is dogma language that enables us to have a common reference. I state that hell is primarily right here and right now. That is, separation from God, if we choose not to accept help.

I'm not claiming any place or being as fact. I'm dealing accurately with the point of Christianity: to give humans a full life. Period.

[*Deidre*]

I think atheists are well aware of our shortcomings, though Fr0d0. Not sure why believing in a deity makes me more willing to take an inventory of my shortcomings/flaws and fix them myself. I respect that if you need a god to help you with this, great. But, if you wrong another person and make amends, believe it or not...that's your choice. Imagining that god brought forth this well of moral fortitude for you to be able to make amends, is really just wishful thinking. But, I digress. haha You are a man of faith. I'm also of the opinion that a higher power may exist, but that is my emotional side speaking, not my logical side. ;=)

[Mudhammam]

Allow me to sum up the Christian position that is being advocated here:

1. God creates man flawed. These flaws are tantamount to punishment. Punishment for what? Flaws.
2. God is/has the cure. What's the cure? Faith in the cure.
3. What's faith? Stubborn persistence of belief in 1. and 2. in spite of reasonable doubts.

This isn't hard to explain or understand. It's just, to quote Frodo, "petty and really disappointing."

[*Deidre*]

Allow me to sum the Christian position that is being advocated here:

1. God creates man flawed. These flaws are tantamount to punishment. Punishment for what? Flaws.
2. God is/has the cure. What's the cure? Faith in the cure.
3. What's faith? Stubborn persistence in belief in 1. and 2. in spite of reasonable doubts.

This isn't hard to explain or understand. It's just, to quote Frodo, "petty and really disappointing."

And when you can't figure out 1, 2 and 3? Go to the old standby default answer. Faith is but a mystery.

Translation: STFU and stop asking questions; just believe!

[fr0d0]

Why not redeem yourself by regretting evil done and doing your best to be a good human being? Why does a sacrifice of which only Christianity talks about is needed? Since the sacrifice is done...can't she just believe God would forgive her in his own way IF he exists. Isn't that more reasonable for a human being to do then say he can only forgive if he sacrifices a life for our sins?

If she accepts God's forgiveness but doesn't believe in him, why won't the sacrifice encompass her? The problem for her to accept a sacrifice she would have to believe in a subjective moral view, that sins can only be forgiven through that means, and she would have to accept a religion to go a long with that. Why is she being forced to accept a religion?

If it is as you say, God wants to forgive her and all she has to do is accept forgiveness, why can't God forgive her if she remains Atheist and wants to be forgiven in the chance that God does exist. Why is it necessary for her to accept a religious dogma for her to be forgiven.

God forgives her _as_ an atheist. He's not the one withholding. All she needs to do is accept it.

You seemed to add dogma back into the mix right after I'd dismissed it. I don't rule out the possibility that there are other ways to achieve fulfillment. I think the xtian bible even states that. Don't ask me where tho lol. This way is already mapped out so should be a lot easier.

Everyone should do their best to be a good human being. I believe positivity like that is acting at our maximum potential, without managing the final hurdle. What faith teaches us is that no effort we can make on our own can make us eligible to be without guilt. For that we need to bridge the gap.

---

I think atheists are well aware of our shortcomings, though Fr0d0. Not sure why believing in a deity makes me more willing to take an inventory of my shortcomings/flaws and fix them myself. I respect that if you need a god to help you with this, great. But, if you wrong another person and make amends, believe it or not...that's your choice. Imagining that god brought forth this well of moral fortitude for you to be able to make amends, is really just wishful thinking. But, I digress. haha You are a man of faith. I'm also of the opinion that a higher power may exist, but that is my emotional side speaking, not my logical side. ;=)

Well my emotional side is well in check :p

I'm not talking about this things we could fix ourselves. Maybe some people need help with that, but these are not the disabling flaws I'm on about.

You're probably a nicer person than me. You're a girl right? :p Like the answer Whateverist extracted, you wouldn't be able to tell believers apart on the street. It's a different focus. What motivates us, and our reason behind what we do. The Christian message to me is one of love and increasing peoples quality of life through love. You girls knew all this already right?

[Mystic]

Why not redeem yourself by regretting evil done and doing your best to be a good human being? Why does a sacrifice of which only Christianity talks about is needed? Since the sacrifice is done...can't she just believe God would forgive her in his own way IF he exists. Isn't that more reasonable for a human being to do then say he can only forgive if he sacrifices a life for our sins?

If she accepts God's forgiveness but doesn't believe in him, why won't the sacrifice encompass her? The problem for her to accept a sacrifice she would have to believe in a subjective moral view, that sins can only be forgiven through that means, and she would have to accept a religion to go a long with that. Why is she being forced to accept a religion?

If it is as you say, God wants to forgive her and all she has to do is accept forgiveness, why can't God forgive her if she remains Atheist and wants to be forgiven in the chance that God does exist. Why is it necessary for her to accept a religious dogma for her to be forgiven.

God forgives her _as_ an atheist. He's not the one withholding. All she needs to do is accept it.

You seemed to add dogma back into the mix right after I'd dismissed it. I don't rule out the possibility that there are other ways to achieve fulfillment. I think the xtian bible even states that. Don't ask me where tho lol. This way is already mapped out so should be a lot easier.

Everyone should do their best to be a good human being. I believe positivity like that is acting at or maximum potential, without managing the final hurdle. What faith teaches us is that no effort we can make on our own can make us eligible to be without guilt. For that we need to bridge the gap.

Ok. Person A is a Christian. Person B is an Atheist.

Person A and Person B have about the same good deeds and bad deeds.

Person A feels bad about their sins. Person B also feels bad about their sins. Both regret it.

Both however feel good about what they've done as good deeds, they being far more.

How does accepting the sacrifice of Christ make a person A feel less guilty that person B?

[Angrboda]

I don't rule out the possibility that there are other ways to achieve fulfillment. I think the xtian bible even states that. Don't ask me where tho lol.

6 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds ... 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

~ Romans 2:6-11

[fr0d0]

I'm the xtian God. Hi Mystic you HEATHEN!!!!

What do you think it matters to me wtf these plebs think about how 'good' they are?

See this prostitute? She accepts my forgiveness and acknowledges her crimes against her own nature.

She is living la Vida loca.

Those two numb nuts are playing with themselves in a hell of their own construct.

God out.

[Mystic]

What if you accept forgiveness from yourself? If you do so, you would also believe God would forgive you.

---

I'm the xtian God. Hi Mystic you HEATHEN!!!!

What do you think it matters to me wtf these plebs think about how 'good' they are?

See this prostitute? She accepts my forgiveness and acknowledges her crimes against her own nature.

She is living la Vida loca.

Those two numb nuts are playing with themselves in a hell of their own construct.

God out.

I'm trying to see how you answered my question but I'm a little confused. A little help. Rephrasing.