Outlawing ALL unproven medical practices,

[Tiberius]

You clearly aren't the only one involved Pippy. You come to these forums and spread your misinformation like there's no tomorrow. A uneducated person could browse this forum, come across your posts, and end up not taking vaccinations that could save their life.

Pippy, there is absolutely no evidence of the HPV shot leading to sterility. The Advertising Standards Authority in the UK (not run by the government btw!) has consistently stopped adverts by various fundamentalist / conspiracy nutters claiming the opposite: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ility.html

The companies that make vaccines are out to make a good product. You know why? The market! If a faulty product appears on the market, the company lose money through loss of sales, and (more importantly) the loss of government support. This is how capitalism works Pippy. You make a product that works, and you charge for it. The HPV shot is actually rather expensive, which means that (a) there is a lot of research that went into it, and (b) there are more research groups doing investigations to make sure the drug is safe.

The fact that a drug is made by another company shouldn't matter one bit if the company is found to be competent to make such a drug. If it is the same kind of science, you'll get the same kind of drug. The science fuels the manufacturing process.

It is in my honest opinion, Pippy, that you wouldn't know a world where we are not lied to day in and day out even if we were in one. It is my firm belief that this world contains far fewer lies than you care to think, and this is asserted by the actual evidence and research done by specialists. You see lies in everything, and people like you are conspiracy theorists. You might not like the term, but it describes you perfectly. How many threads are there Pippy, where a common and well-accepted idea has been challenged to the very core by you? I think I've lost count. The world simply doesn't work according to whatever you think. If it did, I'd be terrified.

In some way, I can feel for you and relate to you. I used to be a conspiracy nutter about 5 years ago, and it's been a painful process getting out of it. At some point though, you'll realise that out of context quotes, speculation, and non-expert opinion count for nothing against solid hard fact. The truth is undeniable.

[theVOID]

I've always said Science can't work on misinformation, because if it aint true, you can't learn from it and if you can't learn from it you can't make working products from the knowledge and if you can't make working products the customers won't buy them and the investors don't give you money!

[Pippy]

Whether what I spout is misinformation is again a moot point. That I am intending to coerce, to control or to effect anyone else is the defining point of misinformation. I may be wrong, but that is just me being wrong. If I am not trying to make you guys see it my way, if there is no coercion, than there is no misinformation. It is not intended to deceive, so it is stupid and incorrect at best, but not with malice.

If someone came here and read what I wrote, and based the decision to not get the Swine Flu or HPV jab because of my opinions, I would have to laugh. That person would be less thorough than you, or even I. It certainly wouldn't be blood on my hands.

When you say you were a CT for a while, I have to smile. Is that why you love to put my in the pigeon hole? What CT's were you sold on that you have now flopped back against? What was you favorite? This isn't about lies and manipulation, it's about discussing possibilities.

I was just thinking today of how the world is one big lie on top of another. We may disagree, but I see lies absolutely everywhere. Everywhere.

Please don't explain to me how capitalism works. Where does planned obsolescence fit in your model? Would that not be a perfect example of capitalism that is not in the best interests of us people? Shouldn't every product be as competitive as possible? And what about cigarettes? They are by proxy not unhealthy because there is a market?

I only felt the need to add that outlawing all unproven practices would be a bigger list than homeopathy and herbalism. And some of us will continue out natural medicine, because we value information that people went through the trouble of passing on for thousands of years. Keep your pharmaceuticals, and feel free to call me crazy, but please allow me to take and not take whatever medicines I feel fit as a mature and functioning human.

Thanks.

[Tiberius]

Whether what I spout is misinformation is again a moot point. That I am intending to coerce, to control or to effect anyone else is the defining point of misinformation. I may be wrong, but that is just me being wrong. If I am not trying to make you guys see it my way, if there is no coercion, than there is no misinformation. It is not intended to deceive, so it is stupid and incorrect at best, but not with malice.

I never said you did it in malice; I don't believe that at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that despite your assertion, it isn't "just you" who is affected by your opinions. Opinions are read by people, and when misinformed opinions are read and believed by another, we start to get problems.

If someone came here and read what I wrote, and based the decision to not get the Swine Flu or HPV jab because of my opinions, I would have to laugh. That person would be less thorough than you, or even I. It certainly wouldn't be blood on my hands.

Are you saying you don't believe there are less thorough people in the world? Most conspiracy theorists fit into that category, not bothering to actually do any research of their own, but satisfied by speculation and rejection of anything that doesn't conform to their already deeply held beliefs.

When you say you were a CT for a while, I have to smile. Is that why you love to put my in the pigeon hole? What CT's were you sold on that you have now flopped back against? What was you favorite? This isn't about lies and manipulation, it's about discussing possibilities.

9/11, Illuminati, New World Order, all that bullshit. I don't like putting you in a pigeon hole, but I put you on the spot because I know what you say is complete and utter garbage. The evidence only points in one direction; conspiracy theorists simply have a filter which decries all evidence against their position as "part of the conspiracy". It was only when I realised there was no reason to believe this apart from my assumption that it was true, that I stopped the conspiracy nonsense.

I was just thinking today of how the world is one big lie on top of another. We may disagree, but I see lies absolutely everywhere. Everywhere.

This is why I hold you are a conspiracy theorist, unable to tell truth from falsehood. You see lies everywhere, ergo you see conspiracy everywhere.

Please don't explain to me how capitalism works. Where does planned obsolescence fit in your model? Would that not be a perfect example of capitalism that is not in the best interests of us people? Shouldn't every product be as competitive as possible? And what about cigarettes? They are by proxy not unhealthy because there is a market?

Capitalism works for the best interests of the people. If a product doesn't match the public need, it fails. I never made the argument that anything on the market is healthy, I made the argument that only products that work (as intended) are successful. Cigarettes are successful because people want fix of Nicotine, and want to relieve stress through smoking something (don't ask me how that works...I don't smoke). Cigarette companies make the product, it works (as intended), and people buy it. Killing you slowly is an unfortunate additional effect of smoking, but despite large advertising campaigns by health researchers, people still buy them. Whether the people who smoke are all idiots, or whether they really don't care about their health isn't a matter for the market. If people have a demand of something, the supply is met.

I only felt the need to add that outlawing all unproven practices would be a bigger list than homeopathy and herbalism. And some of us will continue out natural medicine, because we value information that people went through the trouble of passing on for thousands of years. Keep your pharmaceuticals, and feel free to call me crazy, but please allow me to take and not take whatever medicines I feel fit as a mature and functioning human.

I've never advocated forcing people to take vaccinations. If people want to die, that is their right. What I don't abide is people not taking the advice of doctors when considering dependants (such as children). In my opinion, forcing a child not to take a vaccine that is recommended by doctors, and then having that child die of an easily curable / vaccinable illness is akin to child neglect. If a child grows up and doesn't want vaccines anymore, they can choose to do that, but we have a duty to protect children from abusive parents, and witholding medically proven techniques is child abuse.

[Eilonnwy]

Adrian responded sufficiently to the points, so I don't care to just repeat what he has said.

I will, however, add that while Adrian and I disagree to some level on how much certain markets should be regulated, he is correct in that profits drive the model, including medicine. Many conspiracy theories argue that corporations have the cure for cancer or aids and they suppress it because they make money off sick people.

Any corporation or scientist will tell you that if they had easy the cure for any disease they wouldn't suppress it, they would sell sell because they'd be instantly rich and famous. The truth is that scientists have integrity and corporations regulations. This keeps in check bad practices, forces studies to show the efficacy of drugs that are then provided to us.

Homeopathy is profitable not because it works, but because con artists are good at what they do. I trust a corporation backed by scientists and studies more than a small company promising miracle cures without anything to back it up.

Yes, I take the flu shot every year. The one year I did not get it, because I forgot, I got the flu and was seriously ill for weeks. I have asthma, so the flu is serious for me. I trust that the h1n1 shot, which I've already received, is the same as the flu shot because I defer to experts. I trust them far more than I trust an unknown entity on the internet.

[Autumnlicious]

Occam's Razor applies perfectly to what you obsess on Pippy.

The more complex a conspiracy/object becomes, the harder it is to maintain it/keep it private.

[Pippy]

Since when had it become a conspiracy or an obsession? The thread is about outlawing unproven medical practices. I added my very unique opinion about some questions and concerns I had about modern medicine the stands as 'proven'. Sure I worry that the Pharma Lobby has gotten control of the WHO to some degree, and that would entail a literal conspiracy... But this is just my addition to the conversation.

[Autumnlicious]

Since when had it become a conspiracy or an obsession? The thread is about outlawing unproven medical practices. I added my very unique opinion about some questions and concerns I had about modern medicine the stands as 'proven'. Sure I worry that the Pharma Lobby has gotten control of the WHO to some degree, and that would entail a literal conspiracy... But this is just my addition to the conversation.

If by unique, you mean a minor construction of half a dozen conspiracy theories bundled up with a healthy dose of unproven assertions, then yes, you certainly have contributed...

[Pippy]

Thank you!

[Tiberius]

I don't think that was a compliment...