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Why do Christians trust the Bible?
RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 2:41 pm)genkaus Wrote:
(October 18, 2014 at 12:31 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: We believe that it just narrates through mythology and real events how man came to understand god and how mankinds behaviour evolved. First the behavior was perfect, then it degraded to a level where telling humans the importance of loving your neighbour just wasn't understandable. (This was before Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners)
In a world where Child sacrifice and the likes were prevalent, man had no sense to treat everyone with respect. The world was barbaric, and to keep a country (Israel) pure and alive till the messiah arrived, it was necessary for rules to be set up so that they wouldn't do anything wrong.

When the world's morality improved and people were able to understand Jesus' teachings of love and compassion (still note that this was while Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners) god sent Jesus to explain it all to them.

This is one of the problems with Christianity - in order to believe your fantasies, you have to create and believe in fictional history. What the evidence actually indicates is that human moral behavior was far from perfect but has been steadily improving over the ages with a few setbacks. Things like value of human life and loving your fellow man were understood and practiced long before your Jesus came along. And the tribe of Israel was hardly "pure", given the actions attributed to them.

There are moral philosophies teaching love and compassion that do it better than Jesus that are older than him - so the story that the world was in a state of moral depravity and Jesus came to improve that is a lie. The world was nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be and Jesus didn't improve it much.

I hate the word "philosophy". Science has proven that our morality is evolutionary, we see the same acts of cruelty and compassion in other primates and mammals as well as other species.

I prefer "moral motifs" and all religions are peppered with statements of compassion and kindness, but you can also find those motifs in fiction as well. If everyone can accept the other outside their own label can be good and do good, then the reality is that is is HUMANS doing that, not a myth club or a fictional god.

Mind everyone reading this though, having said "You don't need religion to be moral" does not make atheists automatically moral either, we are all still the same species. Atheists need to accept that as well.
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 6:06 pm)professor Wrote: Here is what I get, looking up each word you disagreed with-
Seth- appointed / placed
Enoch- (verb) inaugurate/ train/ dedicate
Kennan- sorrow/ to chant a dirge/ dirge
Mahalalel- (I agree with your find)-praise of God and it does not change the meaning of the name sentence
Lamech- humilation/ for lowering
So the meaning of the sentence stands for me.
Most meanings came from this web site-
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meani...lalel.html

I'm looking at your site. Ironically many of the means I quoted come from it:

Notice Enoch does mean dedicate and inaugurate. Train is a synonym for teach but it has a rather different connotation doesn't it?

Your own site renders Kennan as possession. http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meani...ELoumPwrdU Lamenter is given as an alternate meaning.

The same site says of Lamech:

Quote:Etymology and meaning of the name Lamech

The word למך (lmk) does not occur in Hebrew, so we are left to guess at its meaning. BDB remains silent on he subject, but both Jones' Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names and NOBSE Study Bible Name List suggest relations to a Semitic root that doesn't occur in the Biblical narrative but which also exists in Arabic, meaning strong and robust young man. Jones' Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names reads Powerful; NOBSE Study Bible Name List reads Wild Man.
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meani...ELpKGPwrdU

It adds:
Quote:To a creative audience, the name Lamech may also be seen as constructed of the particle ל (le), meaning to or towards . . . and the verb מוך (muk), be low, depressed. . The whole name would thus mean For Lowering; For Humiliation.
So humiliation if we want to get creative. I think the whole process is creative rather than miraculous.

In other words, what you have here is a mare's nest. Choose the meaning you like out of the hat, and ta da, you can make sentences.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 3:59 pm)professor Wrote: Jumping back in to the question of the OP, here is a goodie from the list of names sequentially from Genesis one,
making a sentence reading downward.

Adam- - -- - man
Seth - - --- appointed
Enosh- -- - mortal
Kenan - - - sorrow
Mahalaleh- the blessed God
Jared- - - - shall come down
Enoch- -- - teaching
Methuselah- his death shall bring
Lamech- - - the despairing
Noah- - --- rest / comfort

Please give me the odds of the above happening by accident written thousands of years BC.

Sequentially where? Because the first 4 names mentioned are Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel.

And that's not counting the place names which precede any of them.

Did you simply ignore the ones which interrupted your little fairy tale?
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 7:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
(October 18, 2014 at 3:59 pm)professor Wrote: Jumping back in to the question of the OP, here is a goodie from the list of names sequentially from Genesis one,
making a sentence reading downward.

Adam- - -- - man
Seth - - --- appointed
Enosh- -- - mortal
Kenan - - - sorrow
Mahalaleh- the blessed God
Jared- - - - shall come down
Enoch- -- - teaching
Methuselah- his death shall bring
Lamech- - - the despairing
Noah- - --- rest / comfort

Please give me the odds of the above happening by accident written thousands of years BC.

Sequentially where? Because the first 4 names mentioned are Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel.

And that's not counting the place names which precede any of them.

Did you simply ignore the ones which interrupted your little fairy tale?

He's got a hold of Genesis 5 which enumerates the generations of Adam. Not all the kids are listed.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
Jenny, you nailed it.
That list gives the people thru Seth, considered to be the line of the righteous I suppose.
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 6:30 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I hate the word "philosophy". Science has proven that our morality is evolutionary, we see the same acts of cruelty and compassion in other primates and mammals as well as other species.

What science has actually proven is that certain biological instincts are match actions that are normally regarded as moral. Human morality goes above and beyond anything akin to moral behavior found in the rest of the animal kingdom.

(October 18, 2014 at 6:30 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Mind everyone reading this though, having said "You don't need religion to be moral" does not make atheists automatically moral either, we are all still the same species. Atheists need to accept that as well.

The key fact to remember here is that we are not automatically moral - which is what we need philosophy for, to develop a system of morality.
Reply
RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 7:24 pm)Jenny A Wrote:
(October 18, 2014 at 7:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Sequentially where? Because the first 4 names mentioned are Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel.

And that's not counting the place names which precede any of them.

Did you simply ignore the ones which interrupted your little fairy tale?

He's got a hold of Genesis 5 which enumerates the generations of Adam. Not all the kids are listed.

But he said...and I quote:
Quote: Genesis one
.

I guess his god is perfect but the prof is just a fuck-up?
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 10:21 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote:
(October 18, 2014 at 5:34 am)Aractus Wrote:

I didn't mean it that way. I made it clear that I had nothing to argue about there. I just said that a narrative like structure was very limited in the pentateuch. Starting from Joshua, there isn't any law-giving., just historical type narratives. We don't have to argue on EVERYTHING Big Grin
Well that's not the Orthodox teaching at all - in fact it's not the teaching of any Christian faith that I know of that the exodus and conquest of Canaan are not historical events.
Quote:Ps- I don't treat the bible as the word of god. Maybe exodus never happened and the hebrews just went to fight against their neighbours for petty reasons. I'm not going to imply anything affirmatively before the new testament
Again, that's not the Orthodox teaching at all.

Listen to this:
  • Quote:Okay, Kevin. This is, of course, a very common question. The short answer is that we use the Septuagint because the Septuagint was the Scripture of the early Church. The Jews, of course, standardized their Bible much later than [that,] quite a long time after the start of Christianity. The Protestants follow the Jewish tradition because Martin Luther, when he started the Protestant Reformation, believed that they should follow the Jewish tradition because if the Old Testament is supposed to be the Hebrew scriptures, then really we should be following what the Hebrews have that’s in the canon and the text. But remember the Protestant Reformation was a rejection of the Catholic Church and of the traditions of the ancient Church.

    So people who want to be the closest to what the Church was doing in the early Church should not be really looking at the Hebrew text, but looking at the Septuagint, because far more Jews were speaking Greek and using the Septuagint at the time of the early Church than were using Hebrew. There were millions of Jews in what we call diaspora. We call them Hellenized Jews or Hellenistic Jews. These were Jews who did not know Hebrew. The Jews who used and knew Hebrew were the ones who were living in Judea and maybe Galilee, and those [were] of [a] small minority of Jews in the world. Philo of Alexandria says that there were one million Jews in Alexandria, Egypt. That’s probably an exaggerated number, but there were millions of Jews throughout the Roman Empire—in Babylon, especially in Asia Minor, and Egypt, in Greece, in Rome—and those people used the Septuagint.

    That’s why when Christianity began, it began in the Jewish synagogues, and those people were using the Septuagint, so the Church simply continued that practice.

    Dr Jeannie Constantinou (an Orthodox theologian)
It's all untrue - every single part of it. The LXX didn't even exist at the time of Jesus. There were a number of competing Greek translations done in the mid-late 2nd century A.D. proving the widespread use of the Hebrew scriptures at the time by the early Christians. It also proves the LXX wasn't completed until this time otherwise why was there a need to do more translations from Hebrew? It can be proved that some of the N.T. authors were only familiar with the proto-MT text and never used the proto-LXX. There's no record of the Jews ever using a translation in the Synagogues. Both Jesus and Josephus are only familiar with the Hebrew version scriptures (proven for Jesus because he talks about the "Law and Prophets" and the "Law, Prophets and Writings" - the LXX is separated into four sections not three. Josephus writes that the scriptures are on 22 scrolls - that's how the Hebrew scriptures were written and there's no record of a Greek version ever being arranged that way - how could it be when the books are reordered? In the third century Origen modified it extensively.

Not a single complete ancient Greek manuscript of the LXX exists anywhere, not one, and the book of Daniel only exists in ONE (completely) and a recently discovered second manuscript (partially). It (ie Codex Chisianus) dates to the NINTH century. Therefore the complete LXX that exists today dates to the 9th century, and the complete Hebrew scriptures that exist to day date to the early 11th century. Dating the LXX to any other time is a LIE. How can you justify dating the LXX one way and the Hebrew another way? That's absolute rubbish. It may have had some of its antiquity in the 2nd century BC (which I doubt). The oldest manuscripts that exist today date from the 4th century - well the oldest Hebrew manuscripts that exist today date from the 2nd century BC! The pattern should be clear - everything the Orthodox scholar above says about the LXX has been disproved, is dishonest, and above all show absolute religious blindness when it comes to this.

Furthermore, the DSS agree with the Lennigard Codex 95% of the time (most of that last 5% is meaningless differentiations). To my knowledge no part of the MT has been shown to be a later addition, whereas much of the LXX is an addition to the Hebrew text.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
I got a little bit carried away last night, let me sum it up better. Also I should have quoted the question posed to the theologian which was this:
  • Quote:Jeannie, let’s begin with the Hebrew scriptures, because we’ve got a lot of ground to cover tonight, and I want to get to it even if we have to go a little bit long. Let’s start with the Old Testament, or the Hebrew scriptures. The first translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, which was the common language of the Roman civilization at the time, is the Septuagint version, sometimes known as LXX to our listeners, written approximately 150-250 B.C. It continues to be the authorized version of the Hebrew scriptures that we Orthodox use liturgically.

    However, and here’s the big question—I’ll phrase it—the Old Testament, or the Hebrew Bible that is considered authoritative today by Jews and Protestants is not the Septuagint, but it’s the most recent, more recent translation, rather, called the Masoretic text, circa 7-10th centuries after Christ’s death. So the Masoretic Old Testament or Hebrew text was based on translations from Hebrew manuscripts, original Hebrew manuscripts, that are at least ten centuries later than that which was used in the Septuagint.

    So here’s my first question: Why do the Orthodox churches use the Septuagint translation as the official version of the Old Testament, liturgically, when Jews and Protestants use the later and more recent Masoretic version?
If Jeannie disagreed with the premise of the question, she would have said. So she is agreeing that the Orthodox faith teaches that the LXX dates to the 3rd-2nd century BC, and that Masoretic Text (MT) is a later text.

There's also this:
  • Quote:Mr. Allen: And is it true—correct me where I’m wrong—that most of—or maybe all of; I don’t know—the quotations of Hebrew scripture in the New Testament came, not from ancient Hebrew manuscripts, but came out of the Septuagint version of Old Testament Hebrew scriptures?

    Dr. Constantinou: Yes, especially that is the case with most of the New Testament. When they’re quoting from the Old Testament, they’re quoting it [from] the Septuagint version. The apostles didn’t find anything wrong with the Septuagint. They didn’t say, “Oh, we can’t use this, because it’s not Hebrew.” That was the common Bible of the Jews for 200 years before Christ. Those were their Scriptures. And the thing is that the New Testament is just saturated with words and images from the Old Testament.
So, to sum up Orthodox teaching on the OT and LXX:

1. The LXX (Septuagint) is an early translation of the OT and dates to the 3rd-2nd century BC.
2. The LXX was used widely by both the Jewish church AND the early apostles/Christians.
3. The NT authors quote from the LXX and not the MT.

Okay, now here are the facts:

1. The complete LXX does not exist anywhere in a single ancient manuscript, unlike the Hebrew scriptures which does (ie Leningrad Codex), and the New Testament scriptures which also does (ie Codex Sinaiticus and others).

So, here are the dates for the earliest complete manuscripts:

Hebrew OT: Early 11th century (Leningrad Codex - c. 1008 AD).
Greek NT: Mid 4th century (Codex Sinaiticus - c. 350 AD).
LXX: THERE ISN'T ONE!!

The Greek OT we have today is taken from just two manuscripts - Codex Vaticanus (which is nearly complete - but is missing most of Genesis, and small sections of Samuel and Psalms) and Codex Sinaiticus (which is quite incomplete), both of which are copies of the fifth column of the Hexapla. If Vaticanus had all its leaves then we would call it complete (even if some text was missing from some pages), however even then it wouldn't be a complete LXX copy because it has the Theodotion translation of Daniel. This isn't an opinion held by a few scholars, it's a fact: Jerome said that by the time he received the Greek text that the book had been replaced. There's actually more Theodotion influence than just this one book, but the fact that an entire book was replaced shows the nature of the "LXX" as a progressive text.

Here you can see the LXX and Theodotion texts translated into English side-by-side Link. They're not just a little different - they're hugely different!

There are only two ancient Greek manuscripts in the entire world that contain the LXX translation of the book of Daniel. The first is Codex Chisianus, 9th century - complete (for the book of Daniel). The second is Papyrus 967 which is not complete but contains some of the pages. P967 dates to the 3rd century.

1b. The oldest manuscripts...

The oldest known manuscripts containing the following are:

Hebrew OT: 2nd century BC (Dead Sea Scrolls).
Greek NT: late 1st or early-mid 2nd century AD.
LXX: 3rd century AD.

The first manuscripts of decent quality (ie. complete or near-complete for certain books):

Hebrew OT: 2nd century BC (various DSS including "great Isaiah scroll).
Greek NT: late 2nd - early 3rd century AD (Papyrus 75).
LXX: mid-4th century AD (Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus).

Any way you look equitably at it, there are older copies of both the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT than there are of the LXX.

2. Widespread use and the NT authors all quote from it.

Wrong.

Some NT writers were familiar with a proto-lxx for some books, that's probably true. Just like how Matthew and Luke probably had a proto-mark manuscript. But others were NOT.

Most of the information you find on the LXX will not comprehensibly look at the quotation styles per author, and that's really what you have to look at. If all you do is look at all the quotations of the OT in the NT as a whole and then ask "where did it come from" you will find yourself with examples of where the NT follows the Hebrew very closely, where it seems to follow the LXX letter-for-letter, and also where it doesn't follow the original text quite so adherently.

What you need to do is separate the quotations per author, starting with Mark. All the quotations in Mark are the work of a single author. You then discount those passages that are duplicated among Matthew and Luke, and you also consider the quotations that come from "Q", and you are left with only a handful of quotations in Matthew that you can attribute to Matthew and in Luke-Acts that you can attribute to Luke.

Next you have John - all the quotations in John are from a single author.

Then you have Paul - again, all his undisputed epistles are the work of single author.

When you look at it this way, which I did a while ago, you find that some authors seem to be familiar with a proto-lxx for some quotes, and others never use it and only know the Hebrew.

For example, John:

John 2:17/Psalms 68:9 - No difference (between LXX and MT)
John 6:45/Isaiah 54:13 - Follows MT
John 10:34/Psalms 81:6 - Follows LXX (letter-for-letter).
John 12:38/Isaiah 53:1 - No difference
John 13:1/Psalms 40:9 - MT (again, it's very similar but the Greek text itself is clearly distinct).
John 15:25/Psalms 68:4 - MT (past tense).
John 19:36/Psalms 33:20/Exodus 12:4 - Neither.
John 19:37/Zechariah 12:10 - MT

Now here's a good Example. John 6:45 - clearly very literal translation in the Gospel.

This is the LXX Isaiah 54:13:

καὶ πάντας τοὺς υἱούς σου διδακτοὺς θεοῦ

And this is John 6:45:

Καὶ ἔσονται πάντες διδακτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ

(note that's just the quoted section "they will all be taught by God", and not the full verses).

There's simply no way to explain differences like that if they're using the LXX as the basis. If he was copying from the LXX it would be near letter-to-letter identical, like the John 10:34/Psalms 81:6 example. What you see above is a clear example of two independent translations of the same few words in Hebrew.

Besides just one example, John follows the MT and not the LXX. And since the LXX was revised by Origen (and others), it's entirely possible that the LXX passage was altered to match John's quote.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Why do Christians trust the Bible?
(October 18, 2014 at 5:00 am)Aractus Wrote:


Moses is meant to have written down the Ten Commandments on stone tablets, twice. He's also meant to have done so on Mt. Sinai, however he and the ancient Israelites never actually went there!


According to the fairy tale God himself wrote the Ten Commandments the first time. Exodus 31:18

Moses then broke the stone tablets that God had written. Exodus 32:16-19.

In Exodus 34:1-28 God told Moses to chip out two new stone tables and to write down the Ten Commandments himself. BTW, the actual Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 34:10-28.
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