My issues with Atheism, Lets talk :)

[Zen Badger]

Atheism is interesting but I don't find comfort in cold hard logic and data driven beliefs. My instincts strongly oppose and science seems to new, it has been rewritten too many times. Good luck with your pursuit for the truth!!! LOVE and LIGHT!

---

Well L&L sad to say, but almost all of the universe IS cold, hard and logical.

And there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Though I take offence at your seemingly implied suggestion that because we accept that this is how

the universe is we are somehow the same.

We just don't find comfort in an imaginary God, we find comfort in other people.

As to Science being rewritten "too" many times.

What is wrong with that? it's how our understanding of the cosmos advances.

If you don't change you stagnate, just look at religion.

And even if the universe is cold, hard and logical it's still friggin' AWESOME.

[Autumnlicious]

As I noted - it is a troll. Perhaps an unintentional troll, but a troll nonetheless.

[LoveandLight]

Alright guys, I'm sorry I got a bit angry.. What am I supposed to do when Chuck Norris calls you a Troll and a dumbass?

I don't know a lot of physics, I'm not a rational guy. I'm a passionate motherfucker who spends my time falling in love with girls (unlike Chuck Norris) and making beautiful music with amazing people for a living. I don't have the smarts of a physics major, I was built with other qualities. Instead of breaking things down, I build connections, I build relationships, I feel connected with people and nature. And so I get mad at science for breaking it all down and ruining the beauty of it for me.

I'm kidding Chuck, its all love, your waaayyy smarter than me, and your a damn sexy motherfucker.

Anyways, I'm gonna get personal here. I'm going through a pretty tough time in my life where I just broke up with a girl I loved and blah blah blah. So I came here with a lot of emotion and a lot of confusion and losing faith in the order of things, and a little irrational. And maybe I wanted you to say... Your right, everything happens for a reason. It was STUPID because how am I supposed to find anything warm and fuzzy on an Atheist forum. But I'm curious because deep down, I feel it is the truth. But theres one part about Atheism I have a hard time grasping.

There are SO MANY LAWS that govern this universe, and they're completely different when you look at it on a universal scale and the quantum scale, which means there is even MORE laws and MORE laws. I'm not trying to prove anything here, I'm asking for clarity. How the hell did these laws get here? I don't see chaos in this universe at all, (correction: I'm not saying you do either, but I DID yesterday) I mean yeah there are galaxies plunging into each other, But its all governed by laws and rules that cannot be broken. The laws breaks down into numbers BEAUTIFULLY, perfectly, we can understand it all, the Universe, the quantum level, WITHOUT ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING IT because it all somehow fits into this language of numbers, this language of the universe. We put all of our faith in them, we solve problems and understand the universe because of our faith in numbers. Where did these rules all come from and what holds them together, makes them unbreakable, and ultimately over time lead to the creation of something so complex and glorious as Earth? Which then has its own set of rules, which then has its own set of rules, which then has its own set of rules. I live in NYC and I see a plane flying over my head, and yay for humans for mastering these laws and building that plane, but these laws allow us to exist!??!?. Thank GOD for these glorious rules that have lead us to come to be. Or I guess, thank ____ ! for these rules and numbers. We're on the brink of creating an theory of how we came to be. But even the big bang follows rules. What keeps light at a certain speed, what gives it a speed limit. These LAWS!!! And can I worship them? can I get on my fucking knees and look at this 7000 pound piece of metal flying over my head and say "That is amazing!!! If there were no laws that plane would fall out of the sky... or I would fly INTO the sky. These laws that govern everything that is and ever was, I want to worship the order of things, the numbers that allow us to understand. So what does that make me? Am I an Atheist? I wanted to get on my knees this morning and let the laws know that I am humbled by their existence, and thank them every day for being there and allowing me to exist. I'm sorry if my grammar and english is bad I didn't even read over this...

---

And no I'm not on Acid.

---

And what creates logic? I guess you could say we created logic, but still... We are only limited to the laws, and the laws that allowed the history of the universe, which allowed the creation of the earth, which allowed the creation of us. Whats keeping the Earth from plunging into the Sun? Gravity attracts us to it, but what is antithesis of gravity? Its momentum and motion right? So, what created momentum? I can't see it, or touch it or smell it... its invisible, but we must have faith in it or we would plunge into the sun right? I'm not trying to argue there is a god, I'm just asking questions...

[Rhizomorph13]

...But its all governed by laws and rules that cannot be broken, and it breaks down into numbers BEAUTIFULLY, perfectly, we can understand it all, the Universe, the quantum level, WITHOUT ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING IT because it all somehow fits into this glorious order of numbers, this launguage of the universe.

People who understand science, know this is not the case. Our understanding is imperfect and things only, mostly, work like we predict they will.

We're on the brink of creating an equation of everything that is and ever was and how we came to be.

We have felt like we are on that brink for a long time now and as science marches forward it seems to keep finding new pathways to explore. A great example is our understanding of the atomic model; we thought we had it all figured out until we started smacking them together and all this other crap came flying out of them.

The danger with being too eagar to find something to worship and explain everything is that it is too easy to oversimplify what is really going on around you. The worst part is falling in love with that explaination to the point of forsaking all others.

Rhizo

[theVOID]

Spot the hippy.

[Zhalentine]

Perhaps you should do your own independent research on these topics instead of coming here and asking us to do the research for you and present to you our findings.

I accidentally closed out my first reply while switching from an article, so I'm re-writing it with only the most important parts, but your post contains a lot more logical flaws that I highlight.

But its all governed by laws and rules that cannot be broken. The laws breaks down into numbers BEAUTIFULLY, perfectly, we can understand it all, the Universe, the quantum level, WITHOUT ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING IT because it all somehow fits into this language of numbers, this language of the universe. We put all of our faith in them, we solve problems and understand the universe because of our faith in numbers.

The laws rarely ever break down into numbers beautifully; you only get that misconception because all of your school career the problems were made so that you get nice numbers. We cannot also understand all of the universe. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is an example that comes to mind. "Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that certain pairs of physical properties, like position and momentum, cannot both be known to arbitrary precision" (it is talking about electrons)

We also do not put our "faith" into numbers. All the mathematics we use are based off of proofs. If you look at any subject in math closely, it all boils down to the basics.


Someone in your post you asked where our laws come from, and the answer is that no one knows. Just because we do not have an answer for that does not mean a higher being made those laws. If that is your line of thinking, then try to comprehend what laws govern that higher being? Eventually you'll have to come to the conclusion that thats the way it has always been. Why not cut out the middle man of this and conclude that the universe has always had these laws?

These LAWS!!! And can I worship them? can I get on my fucking knees and look at this 7000 pound piece of metal flying over my head and say "That is amazing!!! If there were no laws that plane would fall out of the sky... or I would fly INTO the sky. These laws that govern everything that is and ever was, I want to worship the order of things, the numbers that allow us to understand. So what does that make me? Am I an Atheist?

You can worship anything you want to. Your beliefs reflect the views of Pantheists. Also, the plane isn't flying only because of the laws, the plane is flying because there are gas molecules (which make up our air) in the sky. Why do you think planes cannot fly in space? All the laws are still there in space, it just lacks the air.

I'm sorry if my grammar and english is bad I didn't even read over this...

I probably would have taken the time to re-write my entire post, but this sentence pissed me off. If you're not going to take the time to proof read your posts, then it seems selfish to ask us to research facts and take the time to make thoughtful posts. We could spout the same illogical bullshit that you are, but that is not what makes this forum great. The forum takes the time to research accurate points and not spout out random shit that comes into their brain without evidence to back it up.

Gravity attracts us to it, but what is antithesis of gravity? Its momentum and motion right? So, what created momentum? I can't see it, or touch it or smell it... its invisible, but we must have faith in it or we would plunge into the sun right?

You're using the word antithesis wrong, perhaps you're confusing it with another word? Anyways, gravity is caused by mass. Everything with mass has gravity. You can not have faith in anything, it doesn't effect the laws. Just because someone does not have faith in gravity does not mean that everyone else is going to suffer the consequences of us going into the sun. Also, we do not plunge into the sun because the earth is already moving. If the Earth was put stationary into Sun's gravitational pull we would be sucked into it. The same is true for why the moon does not get drawn straight into the Earth.

[Rhizomorph13]

Spot the hippy.

Know your audience.

[Tiberius]

I don't know a lot of physics, I'm not a rational guy. I'm a passionate motherfucker who spends my time falling in love with girls (unlike Chuck Norris) and making beautiful music with amazing people for a living. I don't have the smarts of a physics major, I was built with other qualities. Instead of breaking things down, I build connections, I build relationships, I feel connected with people and nature. And so I get mad at science for breaking it all down and ruining the beauty of it for me.

Science doesn't break it down; science *allows* us to break it down. You can still see beauty in things whilst knowing how they work. In fact, I'd say that the two are the same thing. We look up at the night sky without telescopes, and feel inspired. We also look up at the night sky with telescopes, and we see that all the points of light are stars and galaxies and nebula (where stars are BORN!), and we can understand how they form, and how they work...and THAT IS MORE BEAUTIFUL!!! In my opinion anyway.

It was STUPID because how am I supposed to find anything warm and fuzzy on an Atheist forum. But I'm curious because deep down, I feel it is the truth. But theres one part about Atheism I have a hard time grasping.

Here you go, ignoring what we've said again. STOP the stereotyping PLEASE! Atheists are no less "warm and fuzzy" than theists. In fact, losing belief in God and inheriting a connection with nature and science can feel quite warm for a lot of us. That, and the community feeling we all get when posting here.

<snip rambling about laws>

Put simply, these are problems for atheism, but they are also problems for theism. Atheism has no explanation for how these laws exist, and from a scientific standpoint, we have to honestly say "I don't know". However, on the theist side, just supposing God's existence as a means to answer the question is equally a problem. It's the ultimate non-answer, and in fact poses the larger question "How did God come into being?". I've been over this before, so I won't go into anymore details here. If you want to read my other opinions on it, you should read my previous responses to you.

And what creates logic? I guess you could say we created logic, but still... We are only limited to the laws, and the laws that allowed the history of the universe, which allowed the creation of the earth, which allowed the creation of us. Whats keeping the Earth from plunging into the Sun? Gravity attracts us to it, but what is antithesis of gravity? Its momentum and motion right? So, what created momentum? I can't see it, or touch it or smell it... its invisible, but we must have faith in it or we would plunge into the sun right? I'm not trying to argue there is a god, I'm just asking questions...

Logic is how we think. It comes from our reasoning, so in a way, we did invent logic. In another way, there are certain logical principles which are held absolutely true, given the nature of the universe. The three laws of logic are considered to be "absolute" in this respect.

As for what keeps the Earth from plunging into the Sun, the constant pull of the Earth by the Sun, plus the orbital momentum of the Earth itself around the Sun. It's a balance.

Anyway, of course you can see momentum. Every time you see something move, you see momentum. All forces are invisible, but we see the effects of such forces; we don't need faith in them. Do you really need faith that you won't float away into the sky? I don't think so.

Your assertion that "we need faith in it or we would plunge into the sun" is fallacious. Even if everyone in the world stopped believing in gravity, the Earth wouldn't plunge into the Sun. Laws of physics do not depend on any form of majority opinion.

I forget who said it, but this quotation kinda applies:

"A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it."

[Eilonnwy]

I don't know a lot of physics, I'm not a rational guy. I'm a passionate motherfucker who spends my time falling in love with girls (unlike Chuck Norris) and making beautiful music with amazing people for a living. I don't have the smarts of a physics major, I was built with other qualities. Instead of breaking things down, I build connections, I build relationships, I feel connected with people and nature. And so I get mad at science for breaking it all down and ruining the beauty of it for me.

I take extreme offense at your words. Being artistic is not the only means to feeling connections and building relationships. I'm an artist (I draw) and a fiction writer. I thrive in fantasy worlds, yet at the same time I adore science. It's not like you can only appreciate one or the other. Being an artist doesn't make you not rational any less than being a scientist makes you not passionate.

You keep making extreme characterizations that are completely wrong about atheists.

Anyways, I'm gonna get personal here. I'm going through a pretty tough time in my life where I just broke up with a girl I loved and blah blah blah. So I came here with a lot of emotion and a lot of confusion and losing faith in the order of things, and a little irrational. And maybe I wanted you to say... Your right, everything happens for a reason. It was STUPID because how am I supposed to find anything warm and fuzzy on an Atheist forum. But I'm curious because deep down, I feel it is the truth. But theres one part about Atheism I have a hard time grasping.

1. We are not your therapists. We are here to have debates not help you feel better about a bad breakup.

2. We never said anything happens for a reason, in fact the majority of us would probably challenge that. I myself despise that phrase.

3. Atheism speaks to belief in God only, but if you want platitudes, here we go. As an atheist I realize that my success is my own, I don't have to credit a sky overlord with everything right about my life. Furthermore, I have the power to change my life, it's not at the whim of a sky overlord. I'm not alone because I have my friends and family, they are what matter to me because they are real. When I feel down and depressed I can talk to them and it's way better than speaking to an invisible friend. I feel empowered and my mind is not enslaved by archaic notions of god and sin. I recognize that this is the world that matters, and as such I care about the world greatly. I donate not because I think God wants me to and I'll get heaven points, but because I genuinely care and want to help people. I believe this quote applies:

“I have something to say to the religionist who feels atheists never say anything positive: You are an intelligent human being. Your life is valuable for its own sake. You are not second-class in the universe, deriving meaning and purpose from some other mind. You are not inherently evil—you are inherently human, possessing the positive rational potential to help make this a world of morality, peace and joy. Trust yourself.”

[TruthWorthy]

Alright guys, I'm sorry I got a bit angry.. What am I supposed to do when Chuck Norris calls you a Troll and a dumbass?

. . . Must . . . resist . . . urge!!!