To explain knowledge of God

[FatAndFaithless]

Sure thing Drips~

[Cyberman]

But you're not testing to disprove your presupposition. That's the key difference. Scientists seek to remove as much ambiguity as to the nature of the phenomenon under observation as is possible. Peer review takes care of the rough edges. Only after much testing and reviewing, which often takes years, does the truth emerge.

It's exactly like your method, only backwards.

[pocaracas]

But it can lead to the wrong god.

So?
Again that what this life is about. We have been given this span to show us where our hearts lie. If we are content on serving an empty God then we do not have the burning desire required to serve the God of the Bible. If one wants to worship the God of the bible then He will keep Knocking till He finds Him.
Being side tracked into the wrong religion for a while is not the unforgivable sin. Finding contentment there and Ignoring the urgings of the Holy Spirit to push past your contentment is.

What if you're convinced you're worshiping the god of the bible, but you're worshiping something not quite like it?
One of the several thousand denominations...

And if it can, it will and it does. How many different conceptions of god do you find in the world, today? not to mention all the ones that came before and are no more...

Indeed, how many fine hair like wires are their in a sive or screen? The purpose of all those false religions is to seperate out those who want to worship the God of the bible from those who do not.

Also.... if it can lead to any god, then it does make you wonder if the method exploits some mechanism in your mind and no god is required for it to look like it works.

Yes it does. For as you 'good people' prove there is a growing number who do not want to worship a God at all. So you A/S/K for a world view that places man/man's morality in place of God.

Again not everyone is intended to goto Heaven. This life is to sift out those who do from those who do not want to serve God for all eternity.

It's not that we don't want to worship any god... it's that we don't accept the premise that such an entity exists to begin with.
So we look at the world around us and follow where it leads.

Question(s): how did people come to know the god of the bible, before there was a bible?
Were they not intended to go to heaven?
Was there no sifting?

Why should people desire to "serve God for all eternity"?

Lastly, if the ASK method can yield results even if no god is actually there, why should it be used? It seems like it's flawed at its core.

[Jenny A]

When I say atheist are men of blind faith, I am not speaking to the expenditure of faith concerning God. I am speaking of faith in facts that subsequently replaces God. Faith that the facts are correct, faith that the interpretation of facts are correct, and the big one faith that somehow 'science' and God can not coexist.

It's not that the facts "replace" god, it's that there are no facts to support god. It isn't god or science, that is a false dichotomy. It's blind faith of god, or no blind faith in god. I can't prove god doesn't exist and I don't have faith that he doesn't. I just have no reason to believe he does.

So we will find anything we are seeking if we look desperately enough? Well, if we seek internally, I agree with you.

if we seek desperately enought we will find anything we set out to find. 'Science' has proven this over and over again.

But I don't think we should base our lives or much of anything else on what we find that way, because it's merely a reflection of what we want, not what is. And if we start thinking that we have a monopoly on the truth based on what we find inside, we are in serious moral danger.

who says we aren't already there? Look at abortion take away the clinical terms and look at what is left. It is soceity allowing the destruction of unwanted babies... We justify this because we sought out clinical terms that we use to disassociate ourselves and dehumanize the victims so we can justify what we are actually doing.

The next is gay marriage. Soceity has taken the first covenant God made between man woman and Himself and united this holy act with an act deemed sinful in scripture. If gay people wanted to have the same right why not settle for the civil or state sanctioned Union? Why does soceity insist on taking the ceremony of marriage from the church and mock it's very core meanings?

We haven't reached abortion clinics and gay marriage (two good things in my view) because of ASK. We've reasoned out those moral decision through public debate.

ASK is not unique to the bible or God. It is simple how man goes about obtaining what he really wants that is not easily found. Why else did jesus frame this in a parable that we could relate to? Look at the setting again the neighbor wanted a basic need. That was to feed his guests. What did he do to feed his guests? He ASK'ed for bread. Why? Because this is our goto when we desperately want something not easily obtainable. All jesus is saying here is put forth the same effort as you would anything else that might be difficult at first to get.

No, it's a method of determining what a man wants to be true and imaging that to be the case.

As opposed to what the nice young men from the Mormon church tell me? There's nothing to choose between you. You're all your own special brand of crazy.

again if you are looking to buy what the Mormons are selling then buy it from them because you will not find it with me.

They sell what most white breads think of when they think Of God, it again is just not the God of the bible.

Just because you can make yourself believe sometime doesn't make it true. That works both ways. From what you just said, ASK does not show whether god exists only that you can believe in him if you really really want to. That's hardly news. Nor is believing just because you want to a good idea.

[downbeatplumb]

Aren't Atheists too stumbling on blind faith but hypocritically accuse us Christians of doing so?

No.

[Drich]

But you're not testing to disprove your presupposition. That's the key difference. Scientists seek to remove as much ambiguity as to the nature of the phenomenon under observation as is possible. Peer review takes care of the rough edges. Only after much testing and reviewing, which often takes years, does the truth emerge.

It's exactly like your method, only backwards.

Sooo.. The 2010 'mini ice age' we all learned about in school was what exactly?

Because to me it look like some d-bag with a respected degree saw a cooling trend in the average yearly temps, put together some bogus reason and convinced a few of his buddies with respected degrees to go along with it, till it started warming up again.

So again how is this different? Because if the search for truth is the primary focus then one will quickly falsify any non-active false gods and move on, just like how we went to global warming and then to global climbate change as a safty catch all phrase to cover or explain the truth of what we have experienced.

This however does not mean there are those in our scientific communities that are not still convinced that an ice age could happen in a few short years.

[FatAndFaithless]

What..the hell are you babbling about?

[Drich]

What if you're convinced you're worshiping the god of the bible, but you're worshiping something not quite like it?
One of

God has promised to test what we build with floods and fire.. In other words He will put our faiths to the test. That is what "Trials" are for. So we know whether or not what we have built has been built on the foundation of Jesus Christ as God of the bible has provided.

the several thousand denominations...

Which again if they center around Christ, none are perfectly right, but the same grace and attonement that covers our sins when we willfully disobey also cover out mistakes when we do our best and fail to get it just right in our worship.

It's not that we don't want to worship any god... it's that we don't accept the premise that such an entity exists to begin with.
So we look at the world around us and follow where it leads.

That's not true. A/S/K is how we look for anything of consenquence in the world around us.. Just look at the opposition and push back I am getting trying to get you guys to just put the same effort into looking for God as you would looking for anything else.

Question(s): how did people come to know the god of the bible, before there was a bible?

Do you know of the parables of the talents? It is where Jesus tells the story of a Land owner who had several servants. To the first He gave 3 talents/bags of Gold. to the next 2 and to the last 1 talent. each according to his/her ablities. The land owner went away for a while then came back. when he came back he summoned the servants to see what they did with the money he gave them.
The first doubled what he was given and gave his master 6 bags, the second also doubled his portion and returned 4 bags the third buried/hid/ignored what he was given because he was afraid of using it. the servant thought it better to return what was given, rather invest the money he was intrusted with.. The Land owner condemned the last servant for not being faithful to what he had been given. took what the last man had and gave it to the guy with 6 bags of gold.

The same is true here replace bags of gold with the bible. Our generation has the bible therefore responsiable for it's content in our beliefs. the generations who did not have it are only responsiable for what God put infront of them. In short God will judge us based on what we truly had been exposed to.

Were they not intended to go to heaven?
Was there no sifting?

I'm assuming you do not know they had literal prophets to directly tell them the will of God. What the prophets of God said and did was written down compiled and that is where we get the bible. So before the bible man had the orginal source material to work with.

Why should people desire to "serve God for all eternity"?

What would be better to serve one who literally controls Everything? or to be free in a literal void? Put 17th century slavery out of you mind for a second and Imagine what it was to joseph to 'Serve' the Pharroah of Egypt. Yes Joseph was a slave by defination, but at the same time he was literally the #2 guy in all of egypt in his time. He ruled the world power of that day. He was over every other living being in the known world except for the Pharroah himself. now contrast a life like that and all the benfits of privliges contained in it, with being placed in the pacific ocean 10,000 miles from anything doomed to tread water for eternity with no hope of anything other than what you have in your power to speak into existance...

Lastly, if the ASK method can yield results even if no god is actually there, why should it be used? It seems like it's flawed at its core.

A/S/K is used all day every day by everyone from screaming for a diaper change to searching for a practical cure for ebolia to finding a mate, to building our next space shuttle.

A/S/K only works if one is willing to keep knocking to he finds what his heart truly wants. If you truly want to find and worship the God of the bible God will honor your efforts if you keep at it. Trials will come and destroy your old religious efforts giving you the oppertunity to ask and seek again to find the foundation of Christ. When you do the trials only make you stronger. It openes youe eyes ears and Heart to God. Before you know it you will experience God in some life changing way. So that You know for sure God is real Alive and active in your life.

To the point that if you were to keep quite about it the stones under your feet would stand up and proclaim the truth for you.

---

It's not that the facts "replace" god, it's that there are no facts to support god. It isn't god or science, that is a false dichotomy. It's blind faith of god, or no blind faith in god. I can't prove god doesn't exist and I don't have faith that he doesn't. I just have no reason to believe he does.

In all of our lives there is aplace in which we yield to a given authority. For some that Authority is God to outher community, for others still it is man's knoweledge in science. No matter what we yeild to it is faith that places that system in a position of authority over you and yours..

We haven't reached abortion clinics and gay marriage (two good things in my view) because of ASK. We've reasoned out those moral decision through public debate.

That not true is it? The soceity was dead set against both those things 50 years ago, and it wasn't a single public debate or even a series of public morally based debates that turned public opinion. It was years and years of asking (votes, debates, and petitions) and seeking (Research/the quest for the ever illusive 'gay gene' observations of wild animals sexual behavior, systematic and purposed dehumanization of the unborn, clinical studies etc etc...) and knocking the never ending barage that finally turned public opinion. You guys really have to put your heads in the sand to not see this in everyday life.

No, it's a method of determining what a man wants to be true and imaging that to be the case.

As with the case of science if the truth is parramount then even if a false hypothsis/god is initially adopted, it's testing/Trials will eventually reveal itself. Then it is up to the indivisual to either ignore the truth or start his/her search over again. That is why knocking is so important. Because we are start out wrong, and it will take a few attempts before we Find the God of the Bible.

Just because you can make yourself believe sometime doesn't make it true. That works both ways. From what you just said, ASK does not show whether god exists only that you can believe in him if you really really want to. That's hardly news. Nor is believing just because you want to a good idea.

What have i said that made you believe that simply believeing something is true ends the search? or ends the A/S/K process?

Again we are told A/S/K yield what Jesus and Paul describe as a house. it is the house our religious beliefs has built. When we build such a house God comits to test it with the storms of life. If said house is built on Christ's foundation it will stand up to the trials He is going to send. If however the house is not built on the truth of Jesus' gospel then what you have built no matter how true you think it to be will crumble around you...

The problem most of you have with your arguements is that you believe the A/S/K method outlined in Luke 11 is a onesided endeavor. I keep telling you that most of you are Atheist because it is not a one sided endeavor. That you all asked God to proove himself in some way, and rather than support your broken down house God sent the trials of life, and took that empty religious structure away. leaving you an oppertunity to build again/knock. but rather than do that you all found something else to put in place of God.

---

What..the hell are you babbling about?

In the 70s and 80 we were told there was going to be an ice age, for all the same reason we are now told the planet is warming. Again this is A/S/K though the 'scientific method.'

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/1970s-ice-age-scare/

This is a perfect example of what i just explained to Jen-A

Just like in religion some scientist wanted something to be true, so he found evidence to support what he thought, and convinced a bunch of his peers to think the same way. to the point where in the 70 and 80 this global cooling became a cult religion. I twas taught in our schools and legitmized in our goverments into action restricting the volume of pollutants we put into the air...

Then in the mide 80's the planet started to get hot again to the point where crops were dying and people went hungry in Africa... Now the evidence was still all there but now the climbate went the other way (The truth washed away what science wanted to believe in the 70s and 80s.) So those who sought the truth went to the other extreme with the same exact evidence. then in the 90s and 2000's we had global warming. until 2004 where it peaked and then started to cool off again.. (in 06 alaska reported the coldest winter in almost 100 years. -50*F ) and it is steadly droping since.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-ne...-f-1/60867

So now in search of the 'truth' we have dropped al gore's 'inconvent truth' for something that matches what the world is actually doing, hence 'global climbate change.' Now this term accuratly describes anything the world does... And once we get scientists off govermental pay roles we will find that o2 emissions play a very small part in global climbate change.
Because O2 is a taxable comodity it is in our collective goverment best intrest to cash in so we can fund the alternitive fuel we actually need to sustain our collective way of life.

In truth it will come out that the sun's solar output is not constant. meaning some years it put out more energy than other in those years we experience hotter temps, in the years where the sun's out put is less it is colder. In 1816 was a year where there was no summer. it stayed frozen all year round..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

but the gub-ment can't tax the suns out put can they? which leaves us dependant on oil we are running out of. So what do we get instead? We are told the sky is falling and out kids (appearently you) are not taught about the year without a summer or the crazy ways they actually make these 'A/S/K' predictions in 'science' up. You are simply told to believe and by faith you do.

There is an irony here in that Christians are being accused of doing what you all actually do.

[Angrboda]

[Jenny A]

It's not that the facts "replace" god, it's that there are no facts to support god. It isn't god or science, that is a false dichotomy. It's blind faith of god, or no blind faith in god. I can't prove god doesn't exist and I don't have faith that he doesn't. I just have no reason to believe he does.

In all of our lives there is aplace in which we yield to a given authority. For some that Authority is God to outher community, for others still it is man's knoweledge in science. No matter what we yeild to it is faith that places that system in a position of authority over you and yours..

What does it even mean to yield to science? I use and depend upon scientific discoveries. So does anyone living in an even remotely industrialized part of the world. But I wouldn't equate using and yielding to. Scientific laws I can't help yielding to. That's why this is such a grand description of trying the impossible:





I recognized the authority of the state but not as matter of blind faith. There are times when defiance is a good idea.

We haven't reached abortion clinics and gay marriage (two good things in my view) because of ASK. We've reasoned out those moral decision through public debate.

That not true is it? The soceity was dead set against both those things 50 years ago, and it wasn't a single public debate or even a series of public morally based debates that turned public opinion. It was years and years of asking (votes, debates, and petitions) and seeking (Research/the quest for the ever illusive 'gay gene' observations of wild animals sexual behavior, systematic and purposed dehumanization of the unborn, clinical studies etc etc...) and knocking the never ending barage that finally turned public opinion. You guys really have to put your heads in the sand to not see this in everyday life.

ASK as you propose it involves asking yourself what you want and seeking confirmation of it internally. Repeatedly asking the public and doing so with reasons, isn't the least bit similar. Comparing ASK to public protest is like comparing masturbation to sex with someone else.

No, it's a method of determining what a man wants to be true and imaging that to be the case.

As with the case of science if the truth is parramount then even if a false hypothsis/god is initially adopted, it's testing/Trials will eventually reveal itself. Then it is up to the indivisual to either ignore the truth or start his/her search over again. That is why knocking is so important. Because we are start out wrong, and it will take a few attempts before we Find the God of the Bible.

Uh huh? Tell me about this testing the hypothesis part, because I sure don't see it. What would falsify your belief in god?

Just because you can make yourself believe sometime doesn't make it true. That works both ways. From what you just said, ASK does not show whether god exists only that you can believe in him if you really really want to. That's hardly news. Nor is believing just because you want to a good idea.

What have i said that made you believe that simply believeing something is true ends the search? or ends the A/S/K process?

Your response to the Mormon truth test.

The problem most of you have with your arguements is that you believe the A/S/K method outlined in Luke 11 is a onesided endeavor. I keep telling you that most of you are Atheist because it is not a one sided endeavor. That you all asked God to proove himself in some way, and rather than support your broken down house God sent the trials of life, and took that empty religious structure away. leaving you an oppertunity to build again/knock. but rather than do that you all found something else to put in place of God.

Bingo, it is a one sided endeavor. There is no evidence it isn't. That Mormons and others also think it isn't a one sided endeavor and yet get different results is evidence that it is one sided.