Feminism and Gaming

[Violet]

It's an issue often debated in gaming. Women sometimes find depictions of women in gaming and fantasy to be objectionable. Some of these objections are legitimate and others, I feel, are not. This post explains the distinctions.

Honestly, I just want boob plate to die in a fucking fire. Not sex-related at all, actually. Also, I dislike "plate bikini" for similar reasons: good armor to actually get you killed in.

And hey, they can keep the options for anyone who wants to walk around all scantily clad in their Greatstats of Epic Warrior Two-Piece Plate "armor"... *as long as* I can put some reasonable full plate armor (with breastplate and no skin stab-gaps) in over the top of that godawful immersion-breaking gear.

I care considerably less about cloth, except that cloth dresses/robes suck for combat movement. Leather is, unfortunately, still "meant" to protect... and therefore needs to not.... not do that.

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Is there a way we can change things so women feel at ease with their own bodies vs. the fantasy world and not feeling like it's a standard they have to live up to? As in, "yeah, my character has big tits, long lean legs and 2% body fat but who cares, it's just fantasy."?

^ This question is directed particularly to the ladies on this forum.

I'd prefer breast size reduction and adjustable weight (most characters are very... 'anorexic'), but it's just another example of the portrayal of 'beauty' that is reinforced everywhere else.

And though you don't seem to think so, it applies to men too... leaving some of those men who can't 'measure up' to the 'beefcakes' with less confidence in themselves. In no way is 'idealization' a one-way street.

[John V]

My wife has helped me to understand some of the aspects of modern feminism that eluded me before.

For example, with the idealized-body-type issue I mentioned, women are made to feel insecure about their bodies in our society. As a man, I don't mind the idealized-body-type in fantasy. Even when I was young and if I'd worked out constantly, I could never have developed the kind of body that men typically have in epic fantasy, superhero or other settings. That's OK because it's fantasy. I feel no sense that I'm supposed to live up to that standard.

c so women feel at ease with their own bodies vs. the fantasy world and not feeling like it's a standard they have to live up to? As in, "yeah, my character has big tits, long lean legs and 2% body fat but who cares, it's just fantasy."?

^ This question is directed particularly to the ladies on this forum.

Wow, you don't see how sexist you are, do you?

Regarding men: "Sorry but that's not ever going to change. Get over it."

Regarding women: "Is there a way we can change things..."

If men can excuse behaviors by just saying Sorry, get over it, then so can women.

[DeistPaladin]

Wow, you don't see how sexist you are, do you?

Regarding men: "Sorry but that's not ever going to change. Get over it."

Regarding women: "Is there a way we can change things..."

If men can excuse behaviors by just saying Sorry, get over it, then so can women.

Excuse me for a few moments while I savor the irony of a devout follower of a deeply sexist religion calling me sexist.

While I'm away, you can reflect on a few choice passages of scripture which serve to explain why Christianity has been and still largely is a deeply paternalistic religion:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 A woman should learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must keep silent.

Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, be submissive to your husbands as to the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church, so is the husband the head of his wife.

1 Corinthians 11:8-9 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for man.

1 Corinthians 11:3 I want you to understand that the head of woman is man.

And what Jesus had to say about people in glass houses throwing stones:

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

OK, now that I'm back, I'll address your accusation. I was asking a question about something that makes women feel uncomfortable and if there was something that can be done to help. This is possibly something that CAN be changed, which is why I asked. As opposed to what CAN'T be changed and even there I discussed how to work within that framework to address legitimate concerns women have.

It is somewhat evocative of that cliched Christian serenity prayer:

Lord give me the courage to change what I can, the serenity to accept what I can't and the wisdom to know the difference.

Do be careful in the future before throwing around incendiary accusations like "sexist", "racist" and "bigot" lest you embarrass yourself again.

[John V]

OK, now that I'm back, I'll address your accusation. I was asking a question about something that makes women feel uncomfortable and if there was something that can be done to help.

Yes, there is something that can be done to help - stop portraying women as sex objects with unrealistic bodies. Some people are actually doing that. A review of the new D&D 5e PHB notes that "A pretty wide range of races, skin tones, and body shapes are depicted, including some of the iconic images that accompany the core classes. The women tend to wear reasonable, practical armor and cloaks, and there's certainly no gender division in terms of class or ability." Fortunately, the publishers apparently disagree that "young, beautiful, scantily clad women" are necessary for sales.

This is possibly something that CAN be changed, which is why I asked. As opposed to what CAN'T be changed and even there I discussed how to work within that framework to address legitimate concerns women have.

Yeah, wimmenz has to change cause boys just walk around with bonerz all the time and can't be expected to change.

[Zack]

But can she support me?

http://bf4stats.com/ps3/venuspagina
retired that guy

hit me up:
http://bf4stats.com/ps3/MyBhole69-420
made this guy about a week ago

hit me up I'm a baller. I don't care if you have a vag. Makes no difference!

Edit for Insanity to bask in my glory! Not premium!

[DeistPaladin]

Fortunately, the publishers apparently disagree that "young, beautiful, scantily clad women" are necessary for sales.

Well, they're entitled to their opinions. I don't agree. I like looking at pictures of young, beautiful, slender, scantily clad women ...and men, and no one is going to convince me to hate myself for doing it. I unapologetically view women (and men) as sex objects, though not only as sex objects. Of course, I'm a married man so all of my lusting only happens in my heart these days but I still do that without shame.

You can convince men to hypocritically pretend they don't like sex that much or don't want to look at images of sexy ladies. You might even convince them to hate themselves for their hidden true nature. I don't think that's terribly healthy nor is it productive to achieving equality for women.

Yeah, wimmenz has to change cause boys just walk around with bonerz all the time and can't be expected to change.

You do realize that sexuality is not a choice, right? Men can hide their "bonerz" or pretend they don't have them. I just don't think hypocrisy is either becoming nor is it helpful.

Of course, I'm talking to someone who's part of a religion that hates sex and promotes sexual self-loathing and hypocrisy, so I don't expect you to agree.

You can call me "sexist" if you like and I'll fire back that you're an uptight puritanical hypocrite.

[Losty]

This topic comes up periodically in the discussion of games and other popular entertainment and I thought I would offer my nuanced view:

If the goal of feminism is to establish professional equality for women, removing the glass ceiling, ensuring equal pay, combating stereotypes that women are incapable of certain jobs, promoting equal academic and professional opportunity, etc. then I am a feminist and offer the movement my full support.

If the goal of feminism is to create a safer sexual environment, to promote awareness of the problems of rape, sexual harassment, stalking and other forms of predatory behavior and abuse, to address the problems of domestic violence more effectively, to foster greater education of men on sexual boundaries and appropriate vs. inappropriate ways to woo, court and seduce, and to make it clear that women are not only (key word) sexual objects, then I am a feminist and offer the movement my full support.

If the goal of feminism is to make men not like sex so much, to make us less "visual", to make us not like looking at pictures of young, beautiful scantily clad women, to enforce prudish standards against anything sexy in popular entertainment and to advocate double standards against idealized female body types in fantasy while being perfectly fine with similarly idealized male body types (complete with shoulders thrice the width of their waist, perfect washboard abs and pecs as big as your head) then I'm going to suggest that feminism needs to either come up with a plan to fundamentally rewire the way men's brains are biologically designed or else get over it.

We men like sex. We are visual. We like looking at young, beautiful, scantily clad women. Sorry but that's not ever going to change. Get over it.

That said, you can work within that framework to create a better society. We men will always see women as sex objects but you can educate us so that we don't see you as JUST sex objects. We will always like sex but you can raise us to be aware of and respect sexual boundaries. We will always like sexy female characters but you can write them in stories to have other aspects to their character, including skills, intellect and spirit. Making men feel guilty about normal sexual urges is not healthy for anyone.

Sexy does not mean sexism.

I completely agree with everything here. I wonder if there are not more female gamers simply because there's a lower number of females who are sexually attracted to video game characters.
I wanted to ask "why don't they make male characters sexy?", but then I thought about it. I like men, I couldn't care less what the male characters are wearing. Not in games or films or sitcoms, but I like the women to be sexy. I've even seen a study about almost everyone is attracted to seeing sexy women regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
If I were ever to play a nintendo game or whatever other kind of video game, I would want the female characters to be attractive. I don't see what's wrong with that.

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OK, now that I'm back, I'll address your accusation. I was asking a question about something that makes women feel uncomfortable and if there was something that can be done to help.

Yes, there is something that can be done to help - stop portraying women as sex objects with unrealistic bodies. Some people are actually doing that. A review of the new D&D 5e PHB notes that "A pretty wide range of races, skin tones, and body shapes are depicted, including some of the iconic images that accompany the core classes. The women tend to wear reasonable, practical armor and cloaks, and there's certainly no gender division in terms of class or ability." Fortunately, the publishers apparently disagree that "young, beautiful, scantily clad women" are necessary for sales.

This is possibly something that CAN be changed, which is why I asked. As opposed to what CAN'T be changed and even there I discussed how to work within that framework to address legitimate concerns women have.

Yeah, wimmenz has to change cause boys just walk around with bonerz all the time and can't be expected to change.

I had to check my eyes for a minute. Woah!? Really!? One of the most sexist posters on this forum (in my humble opinion) and you're attacking DP for looking at half naked nintendo girls? :eyeroll:

[John V]

Well, they're entitled to their opinions. I don't agree. I like looking at pictures of young, beautiful, slender, scantily clad women ...and men, and no one is going to convince me to hate myself for doing it. I unapologetically view women (and men) as sex objects, though not only as sex objects. Of course, I'm a married man so all of my lusting only happens in my heart these days but I still do that without shame.

Really? You just sit in the living room looking at your porn with your wife there? Maybe that's why she's telling you about the body image angle, but you're not getting the hint.

You can convince men to hypocritically pretend they don't like sex that much or don't want to look at images of sexy ladies. You might even convince them to hate themselves for their hidden true nature. I don't think that's terribly healthy nor is it productive to achieving equality for women.

I'd rather convince them that they're not mindless animals and with practice can rise above their baser nature.

You do realize that sexuality is not a choice, right?

I'm quite capable of choosing not to view pictures of young, slender, scantily clad women. I know that my wife, like many women, suffers from body image issues, so I do what I can to build her up, including not leering at young slender women. It pays off in that it does help her with her self image and I get better sex because of it.

Of course, I'm talking to someone who's part of a religion that hates sex and promotes sexual self-loathing and hypocrisy, so I don't expect you to agree.

Er, no, those in a marriage (an arrangement you apparently endorse) are told to have sex regularly.

You can call me "sexist" if you like and I'll fire back that you're an uptight puritanical hypocrite.

I'm a married man with three daughters. If you want to spin my stance against objectification of women as uptight and puritanical, so be it.

[Zack]

It seems female characters are drawn better and fit the environment better than their male counterparts. In my opinion, a male species character tends to be bigger and more noticeable in pvp game environments. I always take the female toon.

[DeistPaladin]

I completely agree with everything here. I wonder if there are not more female gamers simply because there's a lower number of females who are sexually attracted to video game characters.

If I had to guess, it seems women and men have different tastes in how they socialize. My wife played in the campaign I ran for a time but she got bored with it saying there was not enough story telling and too much action. It's not like I run a hack-and-slash campaign, I do like story telling and character development, but I operate a balance between the two aspects.

Men seem to like the strategy aspects and the action. The reason you find more male gamers, I think, is we socialize indirectly through team work or competition, all directed in efforts to reach some sort of goal. Women prefer more direct conversation to feel that social connection.

I wanted to ask "why don't they make male characters sexy?",

From my perspective, they do. You just know that a realistic "Conan" would wear armor into battle or cover up to protect himself from the elements. Instead, he goes about topless to show off his physique.

As mentioned earlier, this is the kind of physique that few men can attain. I once worked out and was on a self-imposed strict diet. I was proud of the body I managed to build but I was nowhere even close to the fantasy-type characters.

Just take a look at this image from one fantasy comic series I enjoyed reading back in my high school years (I'm showing my age here, I think). Check out the guy in the center. The story is set in an arctic north type environment. He's standing topless, showing off his fabulous body, as the snow falls around him. I'm not kidding. You just know he'd freeze his damn sexy ass off in real life but there he is in the story.



Just look at that chest vs. those abs. Where are his intestines? His waist tapers to be almost as narrow as one of either of his legs.

Clearly, this is "stylized" art, with unrealistically exaggerated sexy features, and that's OK because it's fantasy.

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Really? You just sit in the living room looking at your porn with your wife there? Maybe that's why she's telling you about the body image angle, but you're not getting the hint.

Fuck, my wife and I met because I liked her porn that she wrote and draw (she's an artist) and wrote her offering feedback. That's how our online relationship began about 10 years ago.

My wife would only be upset if I was looking at porn and didn't invite her to partake.

Get the fuck over your uptight puritanical self. Oh, wait, you're a Christian. Not going to happen. Never mind.

I'd rather convince them that they're not mindless animals and with practice can rise above their baser nature.

Agreed. Men can be taught what is and is not appropriate ways of flirting with or wooing women. Men can be taught to respect sexual boundaries. Society can do a better job of punishing sexually predatory behaviors.

That doesn't mean we hypocritically pretend we don't like sex or hate ourselves for being sexual beings. It only means we know how to seek sexual gratification in ways that also please the ladies.

I'm quite capable of choosing not to view pictures of young, slender, scantily clad women.

Sorry you're so repressed. Maybe that's your problem.

I know that my wife, like many women, suffers from body image issues, so I do what I can to build her up,

You can do both. I do. Just ask my wife. I make her feel sexy. She makes me feel sexy. Neither of us have any cause to doubt the fidelity of the other. Yet she doesn't pretend not to drool over David Bowey in Labyrinth or the actor playing Ichobod Craine in Sleepy Hallow. I always agree. Maybe that both of us are bisexual helps. Or maybe neither of us believes in an uptight, sex-hating religion that tells us we should feel ashamed of our nature.

Er, no, those in a marriage (an arrangement you apparently endorse) are told to have sex regularly.

Only for procreation purposes. Celibacy is the preferred lifestyle. Marriage is only the second option grudgingly offered. Shall I quote you chapter and verse?

I'm a married man with three daughters. If you want to spin my stance against objectification of women as uptight and puritanical, so be it.

Done.

Puritans had kids, too.