Feminism and Gaming

[Losty]

I love muscular hairy men but that character was over the top

Agree. You now have Losty's seal of approval for taste.

[DeistPaladin]

I just want to say, "awwww" over the cute picture.

[Anomalocaris]

I've always cringed when I see this sort of thing as "protective" armour:

What's wrong with that armor? Are a woman's boobs not more important than her heart?

[John V]

Or, if you expect women to change their basic tendencies, then you should expect the same of men.

No one is saying otherwise. I've not asked anything of women in this thread except to advise on what can and can't be changed about men.

You said that "fantasy shouldn't contribute to anyone's self-image problems."

Men also have idealized physiques in fantasy, unattainable for about 90% of the male population even with a strict regimen of diet and exorcise (barring the use of illegal muscle-enhancing drugs).

My question (which was a question and not telling women what to think as your straw man asserts)

No straw man. You said that "fantasy shouldn't contribute to anyone's self-image problems."

is how might we change society to duplicate male feelings about such idealizations. Men are not bothered by fantasy images of a shirtless Fabio on the cover of fantasy sold to women nor are we bothered by the unrealistic physiques of male heroes in our fantasy game.

Actually I looked into this briefly yesterday and found that men are affected as well.

Part of the issue is that women are also sold real life images of what they should look like. This is where the distinction between fantasy and real life is important.

Again, fantasy images occur in real life and have real life effects. You say yourself that men get off on looking at such images. There isn't a wall between media images, fantasy or otherwise, and real life.

Alternatively, if fantasy images have no effect on real life, then there's no reason to sex them up.

Let me further add that if your solution is that idealized, unrealistic depictions of male physiques in fantasy are just fine but doing the same for women is unacceptable because, you know, the women folk have much more delicate sensibilities and can't handle what we men can handle, this is a double standard and arguably sexist in its own way.

Nope, I think both sexes should be depicted more realistically, and as noted, research indicates it's both a male and female problem, although I haven't had time to read much on the male angle yet.

And what you're missing is that it's not your place to tell women what should or should not contribute to their self image problems.

Which I have not done.

Yes you have: "And what you keep missing is that fantasy shouldn't contribute to anyone's self-image problems."

For many Christians it is. You may not agree with them but it's easy to see why with anti-sex messages like this in the Bible.

This is not an anti-sex message:

3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time

[Losty]

3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time

I wish people would stop quoting this verse. It makes me physically ill.

[John V]

3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time

I wish people would stop quoting this verse. It makes me physically ill.

If people would quit claiming that the Bible says sex is only for procreation, we wouldn't need to quote it.

[DeistPaladin]

You said that "fantasy shouldn't contribute to anyone's self-image problems."

Ah, so we're switching from straw man to quote mining.

Here's the whole quote:

And what you keep missing is that fantasy shouldn't contribute to anyone's self-image problems. Know why? Because it's fantasy.

The context in relation to all of my posts in this thread, which I know you've been reading, is that I'm what ought to be (hence, the word "should") in a society that distinguishes between fantasy and reality for women the same way it seems to effectively do for men. Men don't feel insecure about fantasy, unrealistic body types so how can we accomplish the same for women?

Actually I looked into this briefly yesterday and found that men are affected as well.

I do hope your sources will be a little better researched and peer-reviewed than the last link you posted. I'm open minded but based on my experiences, such men would be uncommon and therefore other factors may be in play.

Again, fantasy images occur in real life and have real life effects. You say yourself that men get off on looking at such images. There isn't a wall between media images, fantasy or otherwise, and real life.

So you say. Again, I'll need to see peer-reviewed psychology studies and not some guy ranting and making things up on a Christian website.

Alternatively, if fantasy images have no effect on real life, then there's no reason to sex them up.

Explain your logic.

Nope, I think both sexes should be depicted more realistically, and as noted, research indicates it's both a male and female problem, although I haven't had time to read much on the male angle yet.

Well, that's boring and a touch puritanical.

This is not an anti-sex message:

The passages I quoted were.

3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time

Congratulations. The Bible contradicts itself. There are multiple passages that admonish celibacy as the preferred option. The above passage endorses spousal rape. Bold emphasis mine.

One woman once confided in me that her ex-husband periodically would rape her. She would wake up in the middle of the night to find him in the process of having sex with her. I call this "rape" but according to the Bible, that's perfectly OK because she has no authority over her own body. Rather, he does. So if he wants to rape her while she sleeps, well, he's her husband and that's his property.

Now, you'll point out that she has similar "authority" over him. This too is potentially abusive but spousal rape is typically perpetrated by the husband so I don't think women would find that "you can do it too" very comforting.

Can I again underscore the irony that I like the visual of fantasy male and female bodies while you like a book that really has some twisted fucking teachings about sex? Talk about things that affect real life behavior.

If you want to rant that images of pretty fantasy girls hurts women, then you need to take a look at how the Bible has promoted the very abusive, paternalistic, male-privilege-ridden society that we now live in. It doesn't just hurt women's feelings (not to say that fantasy imagery does), it causes real physical, emotional and sexual damage.

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I wish people would stop quoting this verse. It makes me physically ill.

As I said to Alpha boy, I understand why. A woman once confided in me she was a spousal rape survivor. Until even recently, there were laws on the books that made prosecution of such abuse impossible, on the grounds of the horrid tradition of "husband's rights".

The verse quoted is disturbing in light of that problem and could easily be read to endorse spousal rape.

[Violet]

How fitting is it that the beefcake is the only one I find even slightly remotely attractive. Even then it's like...meh I'm just not that in to cartoon dudes.

That seems like such a sad state; while I'm not particularly into most of those, I can at least see why another might find them attractive. I wonder why some people don't.

Okay. How about these?

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I don't like the beefcake, too much muscle

You're right. I should have made a meatloaf out of it instead

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1)no one ever said you had good taste.
2)where can you see any muscle? All I can see is a lot of gear.

You know how people cover up nips and vag, and somehow come away looking all the sexier (especially with the 'big reveal')? Same theory... imagine him taking that armor... off.

Not to suggest that the large frame in and of itself shouldn't sell Marcus Fenix

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I love muscular hairy men but that character was over the top

It's a video game. Over the top is part of our legacy.

[John V]

Ah, so we're switching from straw man to quote mining.

Here's the whole quote:

And what you keep missing is that fantasy shouldn't contribute to anyone's self-image problems. Know why? Because it's fantasy.

The context in relation to all of my posts in this thread, which I know you've been reading, is that I'm what ought to be (hence, the word "should") in a society that distinguishes between fantasy and reality for women the same way it seems to effectively do for men. Men don't feel insecure about fantasy, unrealistic body types so how can we accomplish the same for women?

Actually I looked into this briefly yesterday and found that men are affected as well.

I do hope your sources will be a little better researched and peer-reviewed than the last link you posted. I'm open minded but based on my experiences, such men would be uncommon and therefore other factors may be in play.

Again, fantasy images occur in real life and have real life effects. You say yourself that men get off on looking at such images. There isn't a wall between media images, fantasy or otherwise, and real life.

So you say. Again, I'll need to see peer-reviewed psychology studies and not some guy ranting and making things up on a Christian website.

First, let's note that you haven't provided peer-reviewed studies yourself, and are making things up on an atheist website, like alleging that the Bible teaches that sex is only for procreation.

Here's some links and excerpts:
http://www.afboard.com/library/Evolving%...0image.pdf
Our observations appear to represent a “male analog” of earlier studies examining female dolls, such as Barbie. Together, these studies of children’s toys suggest that cultural expectations may contribute to body image disorders in both sexes.
...
A growing body of literature has described disorders of body image among men. For example, such disturbances are frequently documented in men with eating disorders. In one study, college men with eating disorders reported a degree of body dissatisfaction closely approaching that of women with eating disorders, and strikingly greater than comparison men (Olivardia, Pope, Mangweth, & Hudson, 1995). Other studies of men with eating disorders have produced similar findings (Andersen, 1990; Schneider & Agras, 1987). Even in studies of male students without eating disorders, the prevalence of body dissatisfaction is often striking...

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/men/5/2/112/
Findings suggest that contemporary American men display substantial body dissatisfaction and that this dissatisfaction is closely associated with depression, measures of eating pathology, use of performance-enhancing substances, and low self-esteem.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...3/abstract
Although boys generally displayed less overall body concern than girls, many boys of all ages reported dissatisfaction with their bodies, often associated with reduced self-esteem. Whereas girls typically wanted to be thinner, boys frequently wanted to be bigger. However, most studies failed to distinguish between “bigness” due to increased muscle and that due to fat.
...
Body image dissatisfaction in boys is common and often associated with distress.

Alternatively, if fantasy images have no effect on real life, then there's no reason to sex them up.

Explain your logic.

If fantasy images don't have a real effect on people, then it doesn't matter what they look like.

The passages I quoted were.

The passage cited clearly taught that those not given the gift of celibacy should get married and engage in sex regularly. It's interesting that you want to believe otherwise.

[DeistPaladin]

If fantasy images don't have a real effect on people, then it doesn't matter what they look like.

I did not ask you to rephrase your assertion. I asked you to explain your logic.

The passage cited clearly taught that those not given the gift of celibacy should get married and engage in sex regularly. It's interesting that you want to believe otherwise.

Predictable.

Step 1: Skeptic reads the Bible and points out a horrible passage.
Step 2: Christian tries to explain that when the Bible says... it really means... and then an obtuse interpretation ensues, one that conforms to what the Christian already believes.
Step 3: Skeptic finds obtuse interpretation unconvincing, preferring to simply read what's there instead of inventing a convoluted meaning that works backward to reach a desirable conclusion.
Step 4: Christian projects his/her bias onto the skeptic, accusing the skeptic of "wanting" to interpret the Bible wrong.
Step 5: Skeptic points out that skepticism isn't an agenda. It's critical thinking that the Christian applies to other religions but applied consistently to all beliefs and religions, rejecting special pleading. It's the Christian who has a bias, reading scripture with beliefs already in place and interpreting the scripture to work backward to justify already held convictions. The skeptic doesn't "want" to interpret anything but to read what's there.
Step 6: Christian insists that the skeptic is reading the Bible with an agenda to discredit it and tries to at least make the debate a wash.

Welcome to step 4. I've danced this dance many times, as you can probably tell.

I will review the studies you cited when I have time...