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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 10:01 pm
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2014 at 10:02 pm by Chas.)
(October 27, 2014 at 9:23 pm)trmof Wrote: (October 27, 2014 at 9:05 pm)Chas Wrote: OK, so you are claiming that atheism contains nothing that would restrain them.
You got that one right. But atheism is merely a lack of belief in any gods. So it has no bearing on their behavior.
And before you claim that religion gives one an objective reason to value human life, prepare some support for it.
I think I'd rather leave it at you admitting that I was right.
Though it is hardly scientific or a large enough sample size, I should point out that the poll is currently at 60/40 opposed to hard atheism. This suggests hard atheists might be a larger percentage of atheists overall than the tiny minority some would claim. However, again, it is unscientific.
No, you are not right. You have not made your case.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 10:38 pm
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2014 at 10:56 pm by Jenny A.)
(October 27, 2014 at 5:24 pm)trmof Wrote: There is a small yet very vocal contingent of hard atheists who advocate for the genocide of all religious people. From your statements I'm sure you would agree these people are fucking nuts. I think it's high time for a more civilized dialogue between atheists and the religious, and while violent Christians are constantly condemned, there is much less acknowledgement of the danger of hard atheism. For example, if the subject of Stalin or Mao and the millions of people they killed is brought up, it often leads to a "no true atheist" argument.
I doubt whether they were gnostic or agnostic atheists had anything to do with Stalin or Mao's treatment of Christians. Atheist does not mean anti-theist, though some atheists are. Far from there being no true atheists, atheists are simple to define: atheists don't have a belief in a god. That's it. It isn't a creed, it's a definition imposed from without. Any political agenda is extra.
(October 27, 2014 at 7:27 pm)trmof Wrote: Let me repost this again for Boru, as it got lost in that edited post back there.:
I have a non-sarcastic question: If perfect bionic eyes existed or full eye transplants were possible, and a person you never met contacted you out of the blue and said God told them to purchase you a new eye, would you consider this evidence of the existence of God?
I'll answer that. NO. But I'd consider it non-conclusive evidence that the person offering the eye did believe in god.
(October 27, 2014 at 7:28 pm)trmof Wrote: (October 27, 2014 at 7:26 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Bullshit. Do you seriously think that is the first time such an absurd argument has been advanced?
It's so old that it's been reduced to a cartoon.
![[Image: tumblr_kssq1jxGoT1qa95s8]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.tumblr.com%2Fphoto%2F1280%2Fpbh3%2F237047769%2F1%2Ftumblr_kssq1jxGoT1qa95s8)
I believe you will find you are in the minority among atheists on this issue.
It's my opinion. Most claims to know god boil down to I have personal experience and you can't show I haven't. Yours appears to be of that variety.
(October 27, 2014 at 7:48 pm)trmof Wrote: What if the man told you he WAS God? What would he have to do then?
If he were, proving it would be a problem. There's nothing like miraculous powers. And I'm sure his powers would tell him just how best to do it.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 10:58 pm
(October 27, 2014 at 10:38 pm)Jenny A Wrote: (October 27, 2014 at 5:24 pm)trmof Wrote: There is a small yet very vocal contingent of hard atheists who advocate for the genocide of all religious people. From your statements I'm sure you would agree these people are fucking nuts. I think it's high time for a more civilized dialogue between atheists and the religious, and while violent Christians are constantly condemned, there is much less acknowledgement of the danger of hard atheism. For example, if the subject of Stalin or Mao and the millions of people they killed is brought up, it often leads to a "no true atheist" argument.
I doubt whether they were gnostic or agnostic atheists had anything to do with Stalin or Mao's treatment of Christians. Atheist does not mean anti-theist, though some atheists are. Far from there being no true atheists, atheists are simple to define: atheists don't have a belief in a god. That's it. It isn't a creed, it's a definition imposed from without. Any political agenda is extra.
(October 27, 2014 at 7:27 pm)trmof Wrote: Let me repost this again for Boru, as it got lost in that edited post back there.:
I have a non-sarcastic question: If perfect bionic eyes existed or full eye transplants were possible, and a person you never met contacted you out of the blue and said God told them to purchase you a new eye, would you consider this evidence of the existence of God?
I'll answer that. NO. But I'd consider it non-conclusive evidence that the person offering the eye did believe in god.
(October 27, 2014 at 7:28 pm)trmof Wrote: I believe you will find you are in the minority among atheists on this issue.
It's my opinion. Most claims to know god boil down to I have personal experience and you can't show I haven't. Yours appears to be of that variety.
I doubt whether anybodies beliefs have anything to do with their treatment of anybody. Except for mine, of course. I'm much more polite than the vast majority of other commenters.
I've made no claims about God, merely defined my beliefs when asked. You'll notice that the thread (which I started) has nothing to do with that.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 11:05 pm
(October 27, 2014 at 10:58 pm)trmof Wrote: I doubt whether anybodies beliefs have anything to do with their treatment of anybody.
Now you are being disingenuous. You've already said that gnostic atheism leads to genocide.
Quote: Except for mine, of course. I'm much more polite than the vast majority of other commenters.
Not that I've noticed, one or two other commenters excepted.
Quote:I've made no claims about God, merely defined my beliefs when asked. You'll notice that the thread (which I started) has nothing to do with that.
You, have indeed claimed to both have knowledge of god and that you can't provide evidence of it. Just not in this thread.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 11:26 pm
(October 27, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Jenny A Wrote: (October 27, 2014 at 10:58 pm)trmof Wrote: I doubt whether anybodies beliefs have anything to do with their treatment of anybody.
Now you are being disingenuous. You've already said that gnostic atheism leads to genocide.
Quote: Except for mine, of course. I'm much more polite than the vast majority of other commenters.
Not that I've noticed, one or two other commenters excepted.
Quote:I've made no claims about God, merely defined my beliefs when asked. You'll notice that the thread (which I started) has nothing to do with that.
You, have indeed claimed to both have knowledge of god and that you can't provide evidence of it. Just not in this thread.
And neither of those threads was about my beliefs either. I have only ever defined my beliefs when asked.
The first part was sarcasm.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 11:31 pm
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2014 at 11:32 pm by dyresand.)
the world would be a peaceful place if everyone didn't have a religion but a good set of morality considering
most atheist countries tend to be happier and have a lower crime rate. most wars and any wars will be over a religion
that is bronze age mythology that needs to be updated for a modern era of mankind but no one is putting any effort in doing so.
so this is the start of the age of reasoning. no one really needs a religion and it really holds no true power anymore unless your
in a third world country. but even still people in the middle east are turning godless for various reasons they are finding out wow
our religion is total bullshit. but hey it will take a while for america to turn fully atheist but its happening slowly and surly we will
be godless. as hard atheism goes i don't argue with anyone they have questions ill give them the godless answer that science has.
if they reject it out of being ignorant ill keep telling them they are wrong.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 11:41 pm
I voted 'No.'
But I must clarify that my vote involves some reduced rigor.
I know there is/are no God/gods to the same degree that I know there is no elephant in my refrigerator. I do not claim this knowledge is absolute and unqualified as I do not believe in the possibility of such knowledge (the unknown unknowns can only be unknown) hence below some noise level, all such claims are agnostic. But within the limits of my instrumentation and within conventions of common discourse, I know there is no elephant in my refrigerator and know it is rational to believe there is/are no God/gods.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 27, 2014 at 11:53 pm
(October 27, 2014 at 11:41 pm)JuliaL Wrote: I voted 'No.'
But I must clarify that my vote involves some reduced rigor.
I know there is/are no God/gods to the same degree that I know there is no elephant in my refrigerator. I do not claim this knowledge is absolute and unqualified as I do not believe in the possibility of such knowledge (the unknown unknowns can only be unknown) hence below some noise level, all such claims are agnostic. But within the limits of my instrumentation and within conventions of common discourse, I know there is no elephant in my refrigerator and know it is rational to believe there is/are no God/gods.
^ This ^
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 28, 2014 at 12:04 am
(October 27, 2014 at 11:41 pm)JuliaL Wrote: I voted 'No.'
But I must clarify that my vote involves some reduced rigor.
I know there is/are no God/gods to the same degree that I know there is no elephant in my refrigerator. I do not claim this knowledge is absolute and unqualified as I do not believe in the possibility of such knowledge (the unknown unknowns can only be unknown) hence below some noise level, all such claims are agnostic. But within the limits of my instrumentation and within conventions of common discourse, I know there is no elephant in my refrigerator and know it is rational to believe there is/are no God/gods.
you got my attention.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Your stance on Hard Atheism
October 28, 2014 at 12:36 am
(October 27, 2014 at 4:14 pm)trmof Wrote: I would like to get your general opinions on the validity of hard atheism. Specifically, I would like to get the views of the agnostic atheists. The reason being, just as confrontational and irrational Christians are much more likely to seek out a bitter debate with atheists than those who follow the example of Christ, hard atheists are also more likely to seek out a bitter debate than agnostic atheists.
The problem of Christians behaving in an a manner which besmirches Christianity is often discussed, both on the internet and in the real world. However, I think the issue of hard atheists painting agnostic atheists in a bad light is hardly ever addressed, and as a consequence agnostic atheists are less likely to correct hard atheists on their rational errors than Christians are to correct their fellow Christians on theological ones.
And so a poll: Do you think that hard atheism is irrational considering that man can not know what he doesn't know?
I am an agnostic atheist who speaks his mind about gnostic atheism when and where the point will strike home best. I don't go full-tilt at believers, and I don't go full-tilt at gnostic atheists.
I think both positions are irrational, in the sense that they each have an equal paucity of evidence for their claims. I'm more sympathetic to the atheists because I share their lack of faith.
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