Scientific Debate: Why I assert that Darwin's theory of evolution is false

[jgnat]

I assume by now that the original premise has been duly shredded?

[Rob216]

Well I'm not sure that I understand why so many theists would assume to know so much about god but if I had to guess I'd say that they are trying to rationalize a presence that they don't completely understand by trying to anthropomorphize it. If this presence or god has a face, a voice, and a physical body then they can give attributes to it. You hear it all the time: The hand of god, the voice of god, etc...

To address you question about about gives me my concept of god (It's sort of a long story but I'll try to shorten it by sparing some of the details but feel free to ask questions if you want to know more): I had something happen to me that made me believe in the the omnipotence of god. I was burned badly on my left hand and face (the burns on my hand was much more significant though). The burns were looked at and treated. After about 6 weeks I burned the area on my hand that was already burned. If anybody has ever had 2nd or 3rd degree burns you already know how unbearable it is, now add another burn on top of the already burnt skin. In a moment of desperation I yelled something like "God, if you're real then make it stop!". In that instance the pain went away. 2 days later the burn healed completely. I have no scars or nerve damage. When this was all happening I considered myself an atheist, but trust me if you are in enough pain you will say or do anything to get it to stop. So yea, that was my turning point.
You may not believe my story but there are 3 parts of it that I can prove. First, I have pictures of the burn that I had on my hand. Secondly, I have the paperwork from the hospital saying that I was treated for it. Lastly, I could show you my hand and you'd never know that it was burned if I hadn't already told you.

May I pick a nit? I think I can understand how you would find that convincing. But then why don't you just believe in a god powerful enough to allow you to block out the feeling of pain and perhaps facilitate a good recovery? Also, do you conceptualize god as being 'out there', or would something on-board suffice for you? Your experience in particular would seem to be covered by the on-board variety.

Are you agnostic then regarding any creator role for the god you believe in? What do you think the prospects are for our essential immortality. I'm just wondering how your specific experience regarding heeling and the perception of pain supports any other supposed attribute of god. Hope I'm not prying too much.

In regards to the creator role I suppose that I could be considered agnostic. I'm open to a lot of possibilities. I'm curious as to why nobody has ever considered that God started out as a presence meant to preserve the balance of the universe (natural laws) and over time acquired consciousness. Just a possibility that I'm considering. I'd say that I'm not certain on my position of immortality as well. I know that the default example that comes to mind when people talk about immortality is heaven, but I think that Christians get their perception more from Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy than they do from the bible. Non theist religions like Buddhism think that our consciousness is carried on to a different life after death, and some philosophers have said that our consciousness could reside outside of our physical body. Again, I'd say that I'm just open to the possibilities.
As far as giving attributes to god based on my own experience I think I already touched on why I believe in omnipotence. Omnipresence would have to be possible unless God just happened to be there at the exact time that the indecent occurred but I can't imagine that I could make an argument that at that particular moment that I was so important at that moment that I had God's full attention.

Couple of things:
"But then why don't you just believe in a god powerful enough to allow you to block out the feeling of pain and perhaps facilitate a good recovery?"
Are you asking me why I don't think an all-powerful god wouldn't just give us the power to control how much pain we feel?

I'm not sure what you mean by "on board variety" so you'll have to explain

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm curious as to why nobody has ever considered that God started out as a presence meant to preserve the balance of the universe (natural laws) and over time acquired consciousness.

Meant? By whom/what? A presence (that's awfully slippery)? I suppose I'd mention that the idea of a god being created (or arising) for some purpose (or no purpose) and then -ascending- or capturing the throne (as it were) is an idea fairly well represented in mythology (and we, as human beings, also simply "awaken" to consciousness ourselves- so this is a concept within that larger notion that we are familiar with).

I don't think we're in a situation here where it hasn't been considered - more like a situation in which the consideration thereof simply makes us ask -the same questions- one step further back while offering no additional insight. Considered, sure. Worthwhile....I doubt it. This is one of those kernels from which "god" simply does not follow. Fun to wonder about, I suppose...but if I were going to wonder about that I;d probably just stick to explaining how and why that came to be so for us...before I extend any of that to the realm of the divine (and this, I think, would be required before we made comparisons to ourselves with some hypothetical "god" we'd need to know wtf we were talking about in at least one of the examples, otherwise we are attempting to explain hypothetical ignorance with actual ignorance...and I'd rather eat that shit sundae one spoonful at a time).

[abaris]

In regards to the creator role I suppose that I could be considered agnostic. I'm open to a lot of possibilities. I'm curious as to why nobody has ever considered that God started out as a presence meant to preserve the balance of the universe (natural laws) and over time acquired consciousness.

First, the concept of god, the god, is very young when it comes to human history.

What you describe above is basically how religion came into being. By observing the sun, the moon, the forces of nature and having no means of explanation. So our distant ancestors attributed them to be gods. That concept even made it into the advanced culturs. Ra for the sun, Zeus throwing lightning, the Romans still worshipping Sol Invictus and Luna.

[Whateverist]

Heya, Rob.

What I mean by the "on board variety" of god, is a god within. Perhaps we all have within us something supporting us and making us possible. That something could be a variety of consciousness within our unconscious minds.

It would be more comprehensive in its perspective but also less individual than our conscious minds. Ideally the deeper levels of the mind and what we think of as our conscious mind would work collaboratively. But the deeper levels of consciousness has drives and wants of which we may not be directly aware. I think we -as conscious minds/selves- actually exist as a creation of the total consciousness of our being.

Our original purpose would have been to serve the totality of consciousness within each one of us. However, to maximize our effectiveness, a great deal of conscious resources have been channeled into our complexity. I suspect one function of having a conscious mind -rather than acting more instinctually tempered only by local conditioning like most mammals- is to enable us to interpret and anticipate the demands of our own social structures.

So much longer story short, I think "god" is a name for the wholeness of who we are. It has created us and, for its own survival, given us an enormous amount of autonomy. But we are not whole and never can be, at least not until we reconcile with the deeper consciousness. A happy ending or good result would be a conscious mind which accepts its incompleteness and understands its dependence on the cooperation of all the layers below. Reconciliation should be the goal.

So I see no reason to worry about where the universe came from or what happens to us when we die. My best guess as to why the apprehension of higher power persists has nothing to do with any of that. It could in part explain things like the placebo effect, enhanced healing and selective consciousness of things like pain as well as some of the expanded consciousness experiences which we sometimes experience through brain disfunction and psychodelic drugs.

[Rob216]

Wow man that's a lot to chew on but I like it. I don't think I've ever heard anyone put it that way.

[downbeatplumb]

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So Rob if you don't have an authoritative source such as a bible to inform you regarding the nature of god .. what exactly does give you your concept of god? Was your encounter with god informative regarding what god does, what his special powers may be, what he wants from you, what he wants from people generally, what role he played in the creation of life or what role he played in the creation of the cosmos? Was your experience sufficient to confirm the alleged omnipotence and omniscience?

I think one could very well have an experience of the presence of god without having any of these questions answered. Why then, I wonder, do so many theists assume to know so much about 'god'?

Well I'm not sure that I understand why so many theists would assume to know so much about god but if I had to guess I'd say that they are trying to rationalize a presence that they don't completely understand by trying to anthropomorphize it. If this presence or god has a face, a voice, and a physical body then they can give attributes to it. You hear it all the time: The hand of god, the voice of god, etc...

To address you question about about gives me my concept of god (It's sort of a long story but I'll try to shorten it by sparing some of the details but feel free to ask questions if you want to know more): I had something happen to me that made me believe in the the omnipotence of god. I was burned badly on my left hand and face (the burns on my hand was much more significant though). The burns were looked at and treated. After about 6 weeks I burned the area on my hand that was already burned. If anybody has ever had 2nd or 3rd degree burns you already know how unbearable it is, now add another burn on top of the already burnt skin. In a moment of desperation I yelled something like "God, if you're real then make it stop!". In that instance the pain went away. 2 days later the burn healed completely. I have no scars or nerve damage. When this was all happening I considered myself an atheist, but trust me if you are in enough pain you will say or do anything to get it to stop. So yea, that was my turning point.
You may not believe my story but there are 3 parts of it that I can prove. First, I have pictures of the burn that I had on my hand. Secondly, I have the paperwork from the hospital saying that I was treated for it. Lastly, I could show you my hand and you'd never know that it was burned if I hadn't already told you.

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God gets the credit for the burn fairies work again.

Oh burn fairy you unsung hero.