Voter ID laws and Marriage

[Faith No More]

Voter ID laws don't seem to have any effect on turnout...so they don't really warrant the attention the democrats give them. Democrats also only seem to be concerned about voter ID laws in red states like Texas but ignore criticizing voter ID laws in blue states like Rhode Island.

I can't help you with what the Democrats do. I'm just saying that there's a valid criticism to be had for the voter ID laws.

People do need to have confidence in an election and voter ID laws are an effective and clean way of doing that. I would rather have to show my ID then dip my finger in ink that doesn't wash off for a couple of days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_ink

Voter ID laws only provide superficial confidence, because the abuse it prevents is minor. I'd be more worried about the move to electronic voting and the potential abuse it brings if you're truly concerned.

[Heywood]

Voter ID laws only provide superficial confidence, because the abuse it prevents is minor. I'd be more worried about the move to electronic voting and the potential abuse it brings if you're truly concerned.

What is superficial confidence?

[Neo-Scholastic]

I often hear from the left that voter ID laws disenfranchise certain people who have difficulty obtaining IDs. Usually its minorities and elderly. A friend of mine complains vehemently about it.....how peoples rights are restricted and such and such.

Well if that is the case why don't the far lefties complain about ID requirements to obtain a marriage license? Marriage is a right too.....isn't it?

...but state recognition of same is not.

[Faith No More]

What is superficial confidence?

It's when you have confidence in something that if you examined more deeply, you wouldn't have confidence in. I meant that voter ID laws give the appearance of having a legitimate voting system without truly addressing the potential for abuse inside the system.

[Heywood]

What is superficial confidence?

It's when you have confidence in something that if you examined more deeply, you wouldn't have confidence in. I meant that voter ID laws give the appearance of having a legitimate voting system without truly addressing the potential for abuse inside the system.

Sounds to me superficial confidence means you can dismiss people's confidence because you believe they would reach the same conclusions as you only if they thought like you.

Stop telling people what conclusions they will draw.

[Chas]

It's when you have confidence in something that if you examined more deeply, you wouldn't have confidence in. I meant that voter ID laws give the appearance of having a legitimate voting system without truly addressing the potential for abuse inside the system.

Sounds to me superficial confidence means you can dismiss people's confidence because you believe they would reach the same conclusions as you only if they thought like you.

Stop telling people what conclusions they will draw.

Not exactly. He's equating superficial confidence with shallow understanding leading to a facile, false approach.

He's not telling you what conclusion to draw, he's telling you you're overestimating the importance of the problem.

[Heywood]

First of all voting is the right from which all other rights and interests flow. If minorities or the elderly felt that marriage license laws were overly burdensome, they would have little if any voice in changing that burden without the right to vote.

You are implying that voter ID laws take away a person's right to vote. They do not. Also, You need to balance minority and elderly needs with the needs of the overall electorate to feel confident in the election. What steps should be taken to insure a fair and honest election? Well that's a question best answered by the electorate. After all the election belongs to the entire electorate and not some tiny fraction of it.

Next there are considerations of time frame and customary expectation. Production of a birth certificate, and other documentation such as marriage certificates and divorce decrees, not to mention death certificates for former spouses are all traditionally expected when applying for a marriage license. And they are documents most people have whether they drive or not.

Nor is there a marriage deadline that you can miss after which you don't get to marry, though for people who worry about children born out of wedlock there may be a non-legal deadline. Should you not bring the proper documentation the first time, you can go home and collect it even if that requires a calling county clerks offices in other states. Not so voting. If you don't have the proper ID on the day of election you are SOL for that election. Ditto registering for the election.

Elections are not spontaneous events. The dates, polling places, and ballots, are produced well in advance. Plenty of time for a voter to obtain proper ID.

Further we require people to produce IDs to buy cough syrup or get onto an airplane. Colds and emergent travel are spontaneous events that are harder to plan ahead for than an election well publicized in advanced. By requiring such ID are not we also infringing on the rights of elderly and minority to obtain medicine or travel freely? Why isn't the far left screaming about that? They don't really care about minorities or elderly people. They want to demonize the right with this issue by calling them racist and such.

[Cato]

Heywood,
If you honestly care to understand the reality of 'voter fraud', please read the linked study:

This paper seeks to distill our findings: the truth about voter fraud. It first offers a straightforward definition to avoid the common trap of discussing election irregularities that involve neither voters nor fraud as if they showed voter fraud. It then discusses different alternative reasons more credible than voter fraud to explain many of the recurring allegations. The paper then analyzes, scenario by scenario, some of the more common types of alleged voter fraud and their more likely causes and policy solutions. Finally, the paper presents individual case studies of notorious instances of alleged voter fraud, and finds those allegations to be grossly inflated. For more information, analysis, and opinion about voter fraud, by the Brennan Center and others, please see http://www.truthaboutfraud.org.

http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/defau...0Fraud.pdf

Anyone genuinely concerned about the integrity of the electoral process would have done a little research and discovered that 'voter fraud' is a myth instead of uncritically accepting the fear-mongering sanctimonious bullshit. But hell, I shouldn't expect any more from a single issue voter such as yourself; abortion I think, if I recall the conversation correctly (apologies if that wasn't you, but I'm pretty sure it was).

[Heywood]

Heywood,
If you honestly care to understand the reality of 'voter fraud', please read the linked study:

This paper seeks to distill our findings: the truth about voter fraud. It first offers a straightforward definition to avoid the common trap of discussing election irregularities that involve neither voters nor fraud as if they showed voter fraud. It then discusses different alternative reasons more credible than voter fraud to explain many of the recurring allegations. The paper then analyzes, scenario by scenario, some of the more common types of alleged voter fraud and their more likely causes and policy solutions. Finally, the paper presents individual case studies of notorious instances of alleged voter fraud, and finds those allegations to be grossly inflated. For more information, analysis, and opinion about voter fraud, by the Brennan Center and others, please see http://www.truthaboutfraud.org.

http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/defau...0Fraud.pdf

Anyone genuinely concerned about the integrity of the electoral process would have done a little research and discovered that 'voter fraud' is a myth instead of uncritically accepting the fear-mongering sanctimonious bullshit. But hell, I shouldn't expect any more from a single issue voter such as yourself; abortion I think, if I recall the conversation correctly (apologies if that wasn't you, but I'm pretty sure it was).

Fewer than 60 people per year....two per state are convicted of insider trading. Lets get rid of insider trading laws. You see...lack of voter fraud convictions doesn't mean voter fraud isn't happening as the Brennan Center for Justice suggests.

[Jenny A]

---

First of all voting is the right from which all other rights and interests flow. If minorities or the elderly felt that marriage license laws were overly burdensome, they would have little if any voice in changing that burden without the right to vote.

---

You are implying that voter ID laws take away a person's right to vote. They do not. Also, You need to balance minority and elderly needs with the needs of the overall electorate to feel confident in the election. What steps should be taken to insure a fair and honest election? Well that's a question best answered by the electorate. After all the election belongs to the entire electorate and not some tiny fraction of it.

I agree voter ID laws do not take away a person's right to vote, but they can burden it substantially. In the case of persons who would be required to pay for and get a photo ID just for the purpose of voting, that is a substantial burden. Given the energy levels of the elderly, and the transportation, time and income restraints of the working poor, it might very well prevent some voters.

There are a variety of possible protections in lieu of ID. Oregon mails ballots to the voters address and compares the voter's signature on the ballot envelope with the signature on file with the voter registration.
Comparing signatures at the polling place might be a substitute for ID. Voters might even choose which of the two methods to use so the line slowed by checking everyone's signature.

Issuing voter registration cards by mail for each election and requiring that them be brought to the polling place might be another. Voter registration cards with check boxes for each election for a few years out might accomplish the same thing more cheaply.

Fingerprint ID taken at the time of registration and compared electronically at the time of voting would be very secure.

---

Next there are considerations of time frame and customary expectation. Production of a birth certificate, and other documentation such as marriage certificates and divorce decrees, not to mention death certificates for former spouses are all traditionally expected when applying for a marriage license. And they are documents most people have whether they drive or not.

Nor is there a marriage deadline that you can miss after which you don't get to marry, though for people who worry about children born out of wedlock there may be a non-legal deadline. Should you not bring the proper documentation the first time, you can go home and collect it even if that requires a calling county clerks offices in other states. Not so voting. If you don't have the proper ID on the day of election you are SOL for that election. Ditto registering for the election.

---

Elections are not spontaneous events. The dates, polling places, and ballots, are produced well in advance. Plenty of time for a voter to obtain proper ID.

No, but they are time sensitive events. And they can create a time crunch for voters who have just moved. Recently, ID laws imposed weeks before the election have allowed little time at all.

Further we require people to produce IDs to buy cough syrup or get onto an airplane. Colds and emergent travel are spontaneous events that are harder to plan ahead for than an election well publicized in advanced. By requiring such ID are not we also infringing on the rights of elderly and minority to obtain medicine or travel freely? Why isn't the far left screaming about that? They don't really care about minorities or elderly people. They want to demonize the right with this issue by calling them racist and such.

Frankly, I prefer to do away with ID requirements for cough syrup, if indeed there are any in your state.

I doubt those too poor or too infirm to easily obtain a photo ID, fly very often if at all.

And again, voting is the right from which all other rights not constitutionally protected flow.