Obama and Ferguson

[Brian37]

I would have a problem telling Brown parents that their son was a thug and a stupid asshole. Not because it isn't true but they are grieving parents.

See here is where you are being half assed about it. You do think he is a thug. So if you think that then you should be willing to say it to his parents. When Dahmer murdered all those men, non of his victim's families had a problem calling him a piece of shit.

I do NOT think Brown was a "thug". I think he merely did something stupid. Just like I have done stupid shit.

If it is true that Brown was a thug, then you should not fear telling the truth, even to the parents.

[DeistPaladin]

Can I once again mention that the Ferguson Police escalated the situation way past the issue of Michael Brown? Even if it turned out that Michael Brown had pulled out an uzi and threatened to gun down the officer and the entire street, the police escalated the situation to a much larger issue.

The police were confronted with largely peaceful protesters. They responded like the former Soviet army cracking down on Polish strikers. They showed up with armored transports and machine guns. They not only dispersed a crowd that was exercising their first amendment rights, they swept through restaurants and cleared them out, arresting reporters. They fired on media camera crews. They swept through neighborhoods firing tear gas into people's back yards and homes.

Frankly, police behavior went beyond mere jack booted thuggery. At least the former Soviets had a bit more finesse in their oppression tactics. The Ferguson police seemed completely out of control.

The strongest defense conservatives could offer for their behavior was to allege there was some looting in addition to the peaceful protesters. This does not justify firing upon camera crews or sweeping through restaurants to arrest people for sitting at tables and typing into their laptops.

The Yosemite Sam style response to the Ferguson protests stands in stark contrast to the Bundy Ranch protests. When a bunch of white conservative people express outrage about the government, it seems they're not only allowed to protest but also to carry firearms and point them at Federal agents.



Conservative flip flopping on the issue is also palpable. The Bundy Ranch protesters are patriots while the the protests in Ferguson are rioters and thugs.





So the larger issue here, which really needs to be discussed is this:

Is the right to protest a white privilege in America?

Discuss.

[Brian37]

Can I once again mention that the Ferguson Police escalated the situation way past the issue of Michael Brown? Even if it turned out that Michael Brown had pulled out an uzi and threatened to gun down the officer and the entire street, the police escalated the situation to a much larger issue.

The police were confronted with largely peaceful protesters. They responded like the former Soviet army cracking down on Polish strikers. They showed up with armored transports and machine guns. They not only dispersed a crowd that was exercising their first amendment rights, they swept through restaurants and cleared them out, arresting reporters. They fired on media camera crews. They swept through neighborhoods firing tear gas into people's back yards and homes.

Frankly, police behavior went beyond mere jack booted thuggery. At least the former Soviets had a bit more finesse in their oppression tactics. The Ferguson police seemed completely out of control.

The strongest defense conservatives could offer for their behavior was to allege there was some looting in addition to the peaceful protesters. This does not justify firing upon camera crews or sweeping through restaurants to arrest people for sitting at tables and typing into their laptops.

The Yosemite Sam style response to the Ferguson protests stands in stark contrast to the Bundy Ranch protests. When a bunch of white conservative people express outrage about the government, it seems they're not only allowed to protest but also to carry firearms and point them at Federal agents.



Conservative flip flopping on the issue is also palpable. The Bundy Ranch protesters are patriots while the the protests in Ferguson are rioters and thugs.





So the larger issue here, which really needs to be discussed is this:

Is the right to protest a white privilege in America?

Discuss.

BINGO, but no, it was also about Brown too. What you posted is part of it. Humans with dark skin in America are not allowed to make the same mistakes light skin humans are.

Even if I had illegal pot on me, walking down the street, or even if I had just shoplifted and shoved someone, I am less likely to get punished as severely ON AVERAGE than someone with darker skin.

My friend John also agrees with me about whom is hurt more in America by the economy and being punished harsher by crime. John however is not a fan of the term "white privilege". John has a southern draw, grew up in a poor family and can point out family members who voted for Clinton but hate blacks.

There are bigots in both parties. But even with that, even with other dark tone humans living in America that saying "we should not tear up our own shit". None of that changes the numbers or our social conditioning, for the reasons you posted above.

It should be about a political system and one party that has consistently pitted us against each other.

Some of this climate is intentional because some people are bigots and don't care. Some of it is unintentional and otherwise agreeable people dont understand so it is easier for them to blame than to understand.

It should be about economics. I think we still have old school politics and while the one bright light is that younger people are not buying into the divisions of their parents, the issue is still there.

If Obama's election was a good argument for a post racial society, we would not have seen the sudden uptick in paranoia and rise in hate groups. No other president in our history has seen this level of negative reaction.

The real issue should be about economics. The real issue of why our divide is repeating is evolutionary. Humans fear change. When humans have control or a majority in any given society, and they see that power shifting or the population changing, it causes fear.

[Jenny A]

Can I once again mention that the Ferguson Police escalated the situation way past the issue of Michael Brown?

---

Even if it turned out that Michael Brown had pulled out an uzi and threatened to gun down the officer and the entire street, the police escalated the situation to a much larger issue.

The police were confronted with largely peaceful protesters. They responded like the former Soviet army cracking down on Polish strikers. They showed up with armored transports and machine guns. They not only dispersed a crowd that was exercising their first amendment rights, they swept through restaurants and cleared them out, arresting reporters. They fired on media camera crews. They swept through neighborhoods firing tear gas into people's back yards and homes.

Frankly, police behavior went beyond mere jack booted thuggery. At least the former Soviets had a bit more finesse in their oppression tactics. The Ferguson police seemed completely out of control.

The strongest defense conservatives could offer for their behavior was to allege there was some looting in addition to the peaceful protesters. This does not justify firing upon camera crews or sweeping through restaurants to arrest people for sitting at tables and typing into their laptops.

---

The Yosemite Sam style response to the Ferguson protests stands in stark contrast to the Bundy Ranch protests. When a bunch of white conservative people express outrage about the government, it seems they're not only allowed to protest but also to carry firearms and point them at Federal agents.

---

Conservative flip flopping on the issue is also palpable. The Bundy Ranch protesters are patriots while the the protests in Ferguson are rioters and thugs.

---

So the larger issue here, which really needs to be discussed is this:

Is the right to protest a white privilege in America?

Discuss.

BINGO, but no, it was also about Brown too. What you posted is part of it. Humans with dark skin in America are not allowed to make the same mistakes light skin humans are.

Even if I had illegal pot on me, walking down the street, or even if I had just shoplifted and shoved someone, I am less likely to get punished as severely ON AVERAGE than someone with darker skin.

---

My friend John also agrees with me about whom is hurt more in America by the economy and being punished harsher by crime. John however is not a fan of the term "white privilege". John has a southern draw, grew up in a poor family and can point out family members who voted for Clinton but hate blacks.

There are bigots in both parties. But even with that, even with other dark tone humans living in America that saying "we should not tear up our own shit". None of that changes the numbers or our social conditioning, for the reasons you posted above.

It should be about a political system and one party that has consistently pitted us against each other.

Some of this climate is intentional because some people are bigots and don't care. Some of it is unintentional and otherwise agreeable people dont understand so it is easier for them to blame than to understand.

It should be about economics. I think we still have old school politics and while the one bright light is that younger people are not buying into the divisions of their parents, the issue is still there.

If Obama's election was a good argument for a post racial society, we would not have seen the sudden uptick in paranoia and rise in hate groups. No other president in our history has seen this level of negative reaction.

---

The real issue should be about economics. The real issue of why our divide is repeating is evolutionary. Humans fear change. When humans have control or a majority in any given society, and they see that power shifting or the population changing, it causes fear.

Please explain why we should shift the topic from racial discrimination to economics. There is indeed racial discrimination, and I'm sure Brown's color played a part in this death, I don't see that his economic situation did.

[DeistPaladin]

There is indeed racial discrimination, and I'm sure Brown's color played a part in this death, I don't see that his economic situation did.

Just a question: would Brown have been killed if he'd been well-to-do?

I'm not sure of the answer but I suspect that he'd have gotten better treatment if he'd been part of a wealthier family. Maybe not, but I think there are different forms of privilege in America:

- White privilege
- Male privilege
- Wealth privilege

I also think there's such a thing as "Republican privilege", noting the difference between the way Tea Bagger protests were treated both by the media and police vs. the way Occupy protests were treated.

[Heywood]

Please explain why we should shift the topic from racial discrimination to economics. There is indeed racial discrimination, and I'm sure Brown's color played a part in this death, I don't see that his economic situation did.

How do you justify this claim Jenny? What fact exist that suggest that if Brown were white and all other elements of the situation were exactly the the same that he still doesn't get killed?

If I am the cop and the situation goes down as the cop describes....I shoot this kid regardless of his skin color.....and its not even a close decision for me.

[Jenny A]

There is indeed racial discrimination, and I'm sure Brown's color played a part in this death, I don't see that his economic situation did.

Just a question: would Brown have been killed if he'd been well-to-do?

I'm not sure of the answer but I suspect that he'd have gotten better treatment if he'd been part of a wealthier family. Maybe not, but I think there are different forms of privilege in America:

- White privilege
- Male privilege
- Wealth privilege

I also think there's such a thing as "Republican privilege", noting the difference between the way Tea Bagger protests were treated both by the media and police vs. the way Occupy protests were treated.

The moment he decided to have a tussle over the officer's gun by reaching into the car, any privilege Brown might have had as a hypothetically wealthy black man would have dropped away. Wealth privilege does exist though. Certainly the wealthy are less likely to be either shot or treated as suspects when they dial 911. But so are white people, just by virtue of being white. Be wealthy and white and it gets better.

Speaking as a woman, I don't see so much male privilege these days. I do still see white privilege primarily with regard to law enforcement and trying to get a taxi. When dealing with the police being a white middle class woman over fifty is probably the most privileged and I know it. I look respectable. I'm too old for rape bait. I don't look potentially dangerous. And I look way too much like their mothers for comfort. All I need to do is start looking like their grandmas and I'll almost invulnerable.

I don't think the Tea Party versus Occupy Movement treatment differences a story of wealth. Both the Occupy protesters and the Tea Party are a pretty privileged crowds. Over a third of the Occupiers lived in a household with an annual income of over $100,000. Though in fairness nearly a third had lost a job and another third had credit card or student loan debt of over $1000. http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/0...udy-finds/
The Tea Party doesn't quite have a third over $100,000 in annual family income. http://documents.nytimes.com/new-york-ti...f=politics

Both groups complaints are economic. OM blames Wall Street. TP blames the government spending, though they don't want to give up Medicare, Medicaid, and SS.

My guess is that the Tea Party fared better because of two things. First, they are older as a general rule. Almost half of them are between 45 and 62 and another 29 percent are over 64. And second they have a pretty clear agenda. They know what they want. http://documents.nytimes.com/new-york-ti...f=politics

In contrast 64 percent of the Occupy Movement protesters were under the age of 45. Twenty -six percent of them were students. http://theweek.com/article/index/220529/...he-numbers And while the Occupy Movement knew it didn't like Wall Street, it didn't have a very clear idea what to do about that.

Agism had much to do with it. Or perhaps, as a result of agism, an air of solid citizen respectability as opposed to an air of wanna be hippies.

---

Please explain why we should shift the topic from racial discrimination to economics. There is indeed racial discrimination, and I'm sure Brown's color played a part in this death, I don't see that his economic situation did.

How do you justify this claim Jenny? What fact exist that suggest that if Brown were white and all other elements of the situation were exactly the the same that he still doesn't get killed?

If I am the cop and the situation goes down as the cop describes....I shoot this kid regardless of his skin color.....and its not even a close decision for me.

I think Brown might very well be dead if he were a white frat boy and all the other elements were the same. But being black sure didn't help. Fear had much to do with when Wilson fired. And according to Wilson's testimony, he was afraid before pulled along side Brown.

But the real reason I think it's a racial issue is that generally speaking blacks are arrested more often for less than whites, and they more likely to get shot by police. It's that perception, which is often correct, that caused the unrest in Ferguson. If Brown had been white, there probably would have been no protests. In Ferguson, it's all about race right now.

[Brian37]

BINGO, but no, it was also about Brown too. What you posted is part of it. Humans with dark skin in America are not allowed to make the same mistakes light skin humans are.

Even if I had illegal pot on me, walking down the street, or even if I had just shoplifted and shoved someone, I am less likely to get punished as severely ON AVERAGE than someone with darker skin.

---

My friend John also agrees with me about whom is hurt more in America by the economy and being punished harsher by crime. John however is not a fan of the term "white privilege". John has a southern draw, grew up in a poor family and can point out family members who voted for Clinton but hate blacks.

There are bigots in both parties. But even with that, even with other dark tone humans living in America that saying "we should not tear up our own shit". None of that changes the numbers or our social conditioning, for the reasons you posted above.

It should be about a political system and one party that has consistently pitted us against each other.

Some of this climate is intentional because some people are bigots and don't care. Some of it is unintentional and otherwise agreeable people dont understand so it is easier for them to blame than to understand.

It should be about economics. I think we still have old school politics and while the one bright light is that younger people are not buying into the divisions of their parents, the issue is still there.

If Obama's election was a good argument for a post racial society, we would not have seen the sudden uptick in paranoia and rise in hate groups. No other president in our history has seen this level of negative reaction.

---

The real issue should be about economics. The real issue of why our divide is repeating is evolutionary. Humans fear change. When humans have control or a majority in any given society, and they see that power shifting or the population changing, it causes fear.

Please explain why we should shift the topic from racial discrimination to economics. There is indeed racial discrimination, and I'm sure Brown's color played a part in this death, I don't see that his economic situation did.

Because ALL human behavior, majority or minority is linked like any other species to the same thing, access to resources. To ignore this hurts the majority while hurting the minority as well.

Currently as it has been, even if you want to claim it has gotten better, there is still a huge gap between blacks and whites when it comes to how poverty affects them. There is still a huge gap between how blacks are treated even over mere tickets, and even when they make it to the back of the police car, if convicted of a similar crime as whites, ON AVERAGE will receive harsher fines, harsher punishments. And unarmed blacks are more likely to be killed by cops than whites.

Now if we are working to reduce this gap, then you have to accept that it is a problem in the first place.

The reason other westernized countries do not have the level of racism America has is because they do not have the pay gap we do, and the gap between different segments of their societies is minimal because the lowest paid there is proportional to the top.

So if you want to stop racism, you accept it first and accept that economics are the way to reduce divisions.

It really is no difference in any ecosystem with any other species. You have diversity, and you have inequity, but if one species becomes too dominate it can upset the balance and eventually even hurt the dominate species in that ecosystem.

The real problem is a class issue, but we wont be able to get to that point as long as poor whites and poor blacks and middle class whites and middle class blacks are pitted against each other.