Why should Christians be moral?

[Drich]

only if 'they' think God is a fool.

God is not bound by what some of us think to be escape clauses (Which is how things like the crusades and the inqusition were justified)

God/Christ on our judgement day will cut down all of our motives and intentions as well as our actions. In this way judgement is complete. What will God be looking for? where our truly heart lies. Did it revele in sin or did we hate the sin we are in? If we hated our sin and had to kill a guy then we will find attonement. If however it is as you say and we want to go around murdering people then God will find us guilty.

As Christ says in Mat 7 'Not everyone who calls out Lord Lord will he recognise.'

Dirch in reality you can follow the moralities of the bible and do terrible things the bible says. but in reality if you accept jesus you can just throw away morals and say the devil made me do it and still get into heaven if you repent before that time comes.

So again, "only if you think God a fool."

Meaning only if you do not Think God has the ability to know what true repentance is or is not able to discern when someone is going through the motions fro. Someone who has turned from sin.

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Of course, why should god not take some pride in his finest moments? Killing off the jews while marching through Europe on the first crusade. Then killing unbelievers all throughout Anatolia and last but not least, killing all the inhabitants of Jerusalem when sacking the city in 1099. Of course, besides of muslims, again jews and probably some christians on the side, since they got in the way of the holy warriors.

The inquisition speaks for itself with their heroes like Jakob Sprenger, author of the Malleus Maleficarum, whom even some high ranking church leaders considered insane. And let's not forget the happy heretics roastings in Spain, after they had finally destroyed a civilization that was their better in almost every aspects of life.

What a wonderful god! Where's the nearest church, so that I can give him his due?

Then again when god does something terrible people blame it on the devil to keep gods image shiny and clean.

Who gets to judge what is terrible? By what standard do we use? By what authority does this standard Apply to God? (How do we hold Him accountable to said standard?)

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Then again when god does something terrible people blame it on the devil to keep gods image shiny and clean.

So read this part again.

God is not bound by what some of us think to be escape clauses (Which is how things like the crusades and the inqusition were justified)

There's no Satan in the picture, only the god works in misterious ways bullshit to justify atrocities.

Where did I say anything about satan? What I said was man used these escape clauses to justify the acts of evil men.

Just because man uses or manipulates religion to gain a means to an end does not mean God or satan has played a role. It just means man can be evil and is willing to use anything as an excuse to obtain what he wants.

[dyresand]

Dirch in reality you can follow the moralities of the bible and do terrible things the bible says. but in reality if you accept jesus you can just throw away morals and say the devil made me do it and still get into heaven if you repent before that time comes.

So again, "only if you think God a fool."

Meaning only if you do not Think God has the ability to know what true repentance is or is not able to discern when someone is going through the motions fro. Someone who has turned from sin.

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Then again when god does something terrible people blame it on the devil to keep gods image shiny and clean.

Who gets to judge what is terrible? By what standard do we use? By what authority does this standard Apply to God? (How do we hold Him accountable to said standard?)

We can i do god is terrible. But also people judge other people by using the bible and say I'm not judging you the book is, a book cant judge and sure enough the bible isn't gods word its just and excuse to be a asshole.

[Drich]

in 8 years of answering questions in forums like this I can not remember ever once had to saying "God works in mysterious ways."

God's ways are clearly defined in the bible. It is when man's doctrine conflict with what God has told us of Himself that we must default that reasoning. Meaning when our idea of God conflicts with what the bible says about God on a given topic is when God becomes mysterious.

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So again, "only if you think God a fool."

Meaning only if you do not Think God has the ability to know what true repentance is or is not able to discern when someone is going through the motions fro. Someone who has turned from sin.

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Who gets to judge what is terrible? By what standard do we use? By what authority does this standard Apply to God? (How do we hold Him accountable to said standard?)

We can i do god is terrible. But also people judge other people by using the bible and say I'm not judging you the book is, a book cant judge and sure enough the bible isn't gods word its just and excuse to be a asshole.

I asked a very specific set of questions. Take a breath and answer them one at a time. Otherwise know I do not have a clue as to what you are trying to say.

[dyresand]

in 8 years of answering questions in forums like this I can not remember ever once had to saying "God works in mysterious ways."

God's ways are clearly defined in the bible. It is when man's doctrine conflict with what God has told us of Himself that we must default that reasoning. Meaning when our idea of God conflicts with what the bible says about God on a given topic is when God becomes mysterious.

God work isn't mysterious its well how would i say this really really obvious.

[Drich]

in 8 years of answering questions in forums like this I can not remember ever once had to saying "God works in mysterious ways."

God's ways are clearly defined in the bible. It is when man's doctrine conflict with what God has told us of Himself that we must default that reasoning. Meaning when our idea of God conflicts with what the bible says about God on a given topic is when God becomes mysterious.

God work isn't mysterious its well how would i say this really really obvious.

What is your primary language?

[Lemonvariable72]

So drich to boil down what your saying, you mean that god will be sending professed Christians to hell based on weither he thinks they are sincere enough. Does he outline some sort of objective test for this in the bible in order to make it more fair sibce he is clearly biased?
You BTW I hope you never use Pascal's wager again, as according to you everyone who believes in Christian because of that is basically going to hell anyway.

[Esquilax]

So again, "only if you think God a fool."

But god is a fool. Haven't you read the bible? The entire thing is a litany of failures from a being of unprecedented power and insight to accomplish even one of its goals. The fact that he goes on to blame all those failures on others just makes him dishonest, but the fact is that god is unable to accomplish anything he sets out to do at any point, leaving christians like you to cover for him by appealing to some larger plan, the details of which you don't know, but that totally exists.

"I know! I'll make a perfect creation, and everything will be good! Whoops, my perfect creation got foiled by a couple of naked people I also created, and a snake!"

That doesn't sound like the actions of a smart person to me. In fact, if you added more sound effects and swapped out the words "perfect creation" for "fresh pie on a window sill" you'd basically have a pretty good three stooges skit.

[Drich]

So drich to boil down what your saying, you mean that god will be sending professed Christians to hell based on weither he thinks they are sincere enough.

There is no guessing going on here. We are told that "The Word" (As in The Word/Jesus of John 1:1) will be our judge and will be able to slice our motives, and intentions down into deli thin slices judging our actual motives and thoughts of everything we do.

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Does heoutline some sort of objective test for this in the bible in order to make it more fair sibce he is clearly biased?

Yes First we must repent, and accept the attonement offered as an effort to Love our Lord God with all of our being (not as an attempt to loop hole our way out of Hell as per Mat 7)
Then we must forgive others as we ourselves have been forgiven as per the parable of the unmerciful servant. The servant was forgiven a great debt and would not forgive a much smaller debt owed to him. when the debt holder of the servant found out of the servant's actions He had the unmerciful servant thrown in jail.

The same holds true with us. If we truly repent, and turn from sin, yet can not forgive someone's sin against us, then our sins will not be forgiven.

You BTW I hope you never use Pascal's wager again, as according to you everyone who believes in Christian because of that is basically going to hell anyway.

I typically never use the words or thoughts of a dead philospher to do my thinking for me.
That's more of the type of enlightment you will find on the atheist side of the fence.

Christ clearly says in Mat 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Look at the list of things the 'lawless' do. Clearly they consider themselves followers. To Prophesy is to teach or proclaim Christ (this would include televanglists, "Cast out Demons" which includes Priests, and done many wonders in your name which include just about everyone else who has ever done something marvelous for God...

It all boils down to a matter of the Heart. If your Heart is in the right place truly the right place you will earnestly want what God wants for you, and you will do your best to do it. However as Paul says in Romans 7 we are literal slaves to sin and will never escape it. Meaning no matter what we want we will still be sinful people. That is where attonement comes in, if and only if our hearts and minds are right with God.

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So again, "only if you think God a fool."

But god is a fool. Haven't you read the bible? The entire thing is a litany of failures from a being of unprecedented power and insight to accomplish even one of its goals. The fact that he goes on to blame all those failures on others just makes him dishonest, but the fact is that god is unable to accomplish anything he sets out to do at any point, leaving christians like you to cover for him by appealing to some larger plan, the details of which you don't know, but that totally exists.

"I know! I'll make a perfect creation, and everything will be good! Whoops, my perfect creation got foiled by a couple of naked people I also created, and a snake!"

That doesn't sound like the actions of a smart person to me. In fact, if you added more sound effects and swapped out the words "perfect creation" for "fresh pie on a window sill" you'd basically have a pretty good three stooges skit.

then go with the conclusion of the OP.

[Whateverist]

Interesting discussion so far. I do wonder if it might be helpful to look at the whole question from the C1 Jewish perspective within which it developed, because a key element is routinely left out.

God's covenant people had previously been defined with respect to their nationality and their praxis. Sanders oversimplified, but it'll do: a Jew got in because of their nationality, and stayed in by virtue of keeping within the boundary markers of Judaism (not eating pork etc).

One of the things that we Xians regularly fail to appreciate is the lengths and extent to which the NT- Jesus and Paul, redefine those definitions. The getting in part became a decision to follow Jesus as King, and the staying in became staying within the redefined boundary markers of Xianity. This is verified and supported by the Holy Spirit. The covenant people of God are redefined around the person of Jesus.

In terms of the OP, a one off decision won't cut the mustard. Covenant membership and covenant faithfulness are two sides of the same coin. The twin doctrines of salvation (Western Xianity) and transformation (Eastern) are two sides of the same coin.

In terms of the rich man refusing to give up his wonga. The question was “What must I do to have eternal life (AKA be part of God's covenant people in the new Kingdom)”? Jesus was saying in effect “Thou shalt have no Gods before me”. In this, personalised challenge, the refusal meant a refusal to follow Jesus.

Not if Jesus -in the story- was speaking from the point of view of the 'holy spirit' thingy which he understood himself to be following. Then, the example he was referring to might well be that of following the spirit directly. Doesn't he say somewhere else something about coming to destroy false idols? Maybe the xtian message, understood this way, is indeed much closer to the Eastern approach.

[strawdawg]

I mean what real motive does a christer have to be moral when their blood price is paid. I mean a christian can go around murdering and fucking whom ever they want and all they have to say is "god please forgive me" and boom entrance to heaven.

I've always wondered why would an atheist be moral? What moral compass do they go by?