My privilege as a straight, white, cisgender, middle class thin male

[paulpablo]

I'm not constantly judged by other men if I'm ugly

If you're not ugly you wouldn't know, if you are and you live in a utopia where other people don't judge you on how you look even if you're ugly then I guess you're pretty lucky. In fact I really want to move to where you live where white middleclass people get all these privileges, never objectified, never joked about, never the butt of racist jokes, you're in a high paid job because you're white. Give me the destination I want to go there.[/quote]

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and I don't have the media constantly throwing me out a beauty standard of a very perfect male for me to follow

Off the top of my head now I can name about 10 male celebrities, who my female friends idolize who I will NEVER be as good looking as either facially or body wise. If this is a male privilage not effecting men then you would think there would be less men at the gym constantly slaving away for the perfect body.
Not to mention just trends that pop up that groups of men follow instantly, women say they like beards, click their fingers and its funny, a trend of lots and lots of men with beards starts. But I mean that's a separate topic altogether I suppose, that rant can be saved for another time.[/quote]

[Vosur]

Yes, a lot of people hate feminism and social justice on the internet. That's because there is a LOT of bad behavior in the name of social justice or feminism. So if you're going to pretend that everyone is hostile towards your little group, maybe it would be beneficial to try and figure out why everyone people are that hostile.

There's a whole community dedicated to exposing the insanity and hypocrisy of feminists and Social Justice Warriors on the Internet - TumblrInAction. Here are some of the most hilarious examples:

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[Dystopia]

Really? That's why more than 90% of sexual objectification is directed towards females.

You're right, the correct statistic is 96%... http://newyorksociologist.org/11/Berberick2011.pdf.

In fact, there's studies that prove women are perceived as sex objects or by their body parts rather than as a whole, contrary to men, it is necessary to put some effort to remain ignorant to deny this. I know that because I've perceived women based on their individual body parts due to media and social influence, so I'm not guilt free - You have studies from Philip Bernard, check them out.

commercials don't objectify male bodies

Never intended to say commercials don't objectify anyone who is male, just that they are not the majority. Oh and out of those 4 only the last one objectifies - The other 3 just show sexuality - Did you at least see the video to learn how to distinguish between social objectification and simply showing your sexuality? I've already said showing up naked isn't objectifying, it depends on the context and that's how the media works. Simply showing up naked isn't objectifying like the following add that breeds submission and passiveness to promote a product:
http://testdb.msmagazine.com/blog/wp-con...bbana.jpeg

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If you're not ugly you wouldn't know, if you are and you live in a utopia where other people don't judge you on how you look even if you're ugly then I guess you're pretty lucky. In fact I really want to move to where you live where white middleclass people get all these privileges, never objectified, never joked about, never the butt of racist jokes, you're in a high paid job because you're white. Give me the destination I want to go there.

I don't live in a paradise. It's not about the utopia, the pressure on men is directed towards being successful and making money mostly - I hear my male friends, old and young saying it all the time - With money you can have power, and success bring happiness - Society doesn't put the number one pressure on how pretty you look.

Off the top of my head now I can name about 10 male celebrities, who my female friends idolize who I will NEVER be as good looking as either facially or body wise. If this is a male privilage not effecting men then you would think there would be less men at the gym constantly slaving away for the perfect body.

Men are the gym because it's healthy or because they want to have a good body, that's perfectly acceptable, never questioned that. But the obsession they have is nowhere near the same as women. My value is not placed on my body, but on my success, and I know society thinks like that.

Not to mention just trends that pop up that groups of men follow instantly, women say they like beards, click their fingers and its funny, a trend of lots and lots of men with beards starts. But I mean that's a separate topic altogether I suppose, that rant can be saved for another time.

I get that, but there's taste for every person - That's not the point, the point is that the media constantly bombards us with a beauty ideal that is much more elaborated for females - That's with the sole intent of selling clothes, beauty products and everything related to it - Why do you think so many women have eating disorders compared to men? (I know that men have it too). Why do you think so many females complain that they don't have the perfect body - Because they are too skinny, fat, have curly hair, don't have blonde hair, or need a breast implant? I don't see men obsesses by their looks as much as women, if anything men groom themselves appropriately but most don't put that much effort. I'm average height and weight, average looking and I'm not giving a shit about if I look good or not, mostly because I date and I'm happy, and because I wasn't shown pictures and magazines since I was a kid full of men always with the same almost impossible to reach body type - In fact most pictures of men I saw as a kid were about politicians and other successful people dressed in suits and happy, something that directed me towards success.

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I've actually watched some Laci Green videos and I'm not very fond of her, not because she's wrong, she's mostly not, but because I don't like the way she speaks and exposes things - But I always get surprised how a pro-equality feminism article or video is bound to have death and rape threats - A good example would be gamespot's review calling GTA V sexist with arguments supporting the view - Luckily gamespot said they were ashamed to be associated with people who have made those comments.

If we're going to get into a contest over who has more bad behavior, trust me, the Laci Green incident is just the tip of the iceberg. Remember Donglegate? An internet feminist overheard guys talking, publicly shamed them and got one of them fired for it. You want to keep going? Plebcomics is a webcomic that made fun of the more extreme SJW's and some of them got so offended that they called the creators employer and had her fired (the webomic is currently down, but you can do a simple google search for 'plebcomics' to see some of her stuff). Melody Hensley, internet feminist, claimed she got PTSD from twitter and when soldiers complained to her that she was devaluing the experiences of people who actully have PTSD from legitimately traumatic experiences (like being in combat or having a vehicle you're in explode), she called their CO to try to get them court marshaled. A pro-equality mens' group tries to have a speaking event at the University of Toronto and a feminist group turns it into a riot, ending with someone pulling a fire alarm, feminists cheering and then a bunch of guys being chastised outside. Meg Lankier-Simmons sent and anonymous rape threat to herself and used it as evidence that rape isn't taken seriously enough by her school and instigated several feminist rallies around it before authorities realized she sent the threat herself. A blogger using the alias 'Biting Beaver' publicly admitted regret over not aborting her son when she caught him looking at porn on the internet. And these are just off the top of my head.

Yes, a lot of people hate feminism and social justice on the internet. That's because there is a LOT of bad behavior in the name of social justice or feminism. So if you're going to pretend that everyone is hostile towards your little group, maybe it would be beneficial to try and figure out why everyone people are that hostile.

I don't actually think that behaviour is representative of most population of feminists, just like atheists who think religious people should be executed and religion should be banned are not the majority of worldwide atheists - I think people notice more bad behaviour and label the whole group because of it. It's true that 9gag or reddit are full of posts and people, mostly young males, claiming feminism sucks because feminists only want to oppress males and they say feminism is a threat to public safety, among other idiot comments - This tendency among young men is as disgusting as feminazis who claim women should be superior, but feminazis are not feminists, they are an exception, they don't fight for equality - If you go into a feminist writer, or bloger, you'll see that not only are all problems directed towards equality, but that they worry about men's frequently, for instance male circumcision, or male rape victims shaming.

I think we should stop judging all movements just because some people claim to be a part of them and do dumb shit.

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Yes it's nowhere near comparable because men are much MUCH more forced to compete than women are, just look at school yard games, from an early age girls stereotypically tend to skip rope, dance, play hop scotch, dress up, play house, all co operative games. What do boys do? Well in my school if you were a boy and you weren't fighting, wrestling, trying to out run or out play other boys at football you were considered strange.

You just demonstrated that gender roles still exist. I wasn't doing any of those things because I wasn't genuinely interested, and because of that I had few friends - You know why that happened? Because a concept of masculinity that is pretty stupid was imposed to me. Why is it like this? I'm talking about hate between females and not between people, it's true that women slut shame each other when they should be there for each other, and it's stupid it happens - There's no reason for it - Men compete, but they form bonds of friendship and the media doesn't tell them they should be mad at each other because, let's say, they love the same girl. Not that it doesn't happen, but men take pride into their friendships and sometimes they prefer it to the girl.

Men are much more likely to be mocked because of the lack of women they sleep with, but also can be ostracised for sleeping around aswell just not as much as women, it still doesn't make it a privilege to be a man in this aspect.

It does, and why can I get mocked for not sleeping around with women and women are complete whores if they have sex with more than 1 male until they are older (more than 20 years old)? And why is female virginity so important compared to male virginity that should be lost, as soon as possible? That's right, gender roles, one side should be aggressive and the other passive. And that sucks, why can't we all have sex with everyone we want too?

No because males are more aggressive than their female counterparts in most species of great apes, I could be wrong but I think it's the case in most mammals, and I've never seen an orangutan being influenced by a woman's magazine, or a female chimp that was going to dominate her group until she got told by another chimp it's just a boys thing.

Yes, but that doesn't make it wrong for female species to be agressive sometimes, or for males to be emotional or more passive from time to time.

Or just a pervert, a man wearing tight pants that blatantly show his cock in a public area is more likely to be viewed as a sexual deviant, or like you say a homosexual, even if he isn't one. Therefore not a male privilege to go around wearing revealing clothing.

It's true, but we aren't associated with sluts, we are associated with gays, or with sexual deviant behaviour, we aren't considered pieces of meat that everyone can bang. And that's what happens what girls - I'm a man, I've done that to them, so I know it happens, I've treated a lot like a piece of meat and nothing else. I'm guilty.

[paulpablo]

well you have just shifted the goal posts of pretty much all your arguments, now commercials do objectify men sometimes, men aren't subjected to unrealistic standards of beauty but now they are sometimes just not as much as women.

And I would debate you're pretty much wrong about all these things, I'd say men are bombarded with just as many perfect male faces and 6 packs and oiled up male bodies they just don't react as much as women do. And men are usually portrayed as being more dominant in the media because biologically in the human species men are more dominant and aggressive, not just because the men told the girls they weren't allowed to be.

And as for the videos in what way were the men not represented as sex objects? They weren't admired for their personality, or their success. If they weren't as sexually attractive they wouldn't have been hired for those commercials. I don't even think any of them actually speak in those commercials.

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Yes, but that doesn't make it wrong for female species to be agressive sometimes, or for males to be emotional or more passive from time to time.

Show me where I said it is wrong for women to be aggressive, you asked me have I ever thought that women might not be aggressive because people have told them to not be, I said no because like many other mammals it's pretty much biological, not cultural. It's testosterone and balls which makes it rare but not unheard of to have female dominance in societies. Rather than magazines and adverts. Out of every animal there is usually one sex which is dominant, and it's only humans which are intelligent enough to have magazines, adverts and so on. [/quote]

The premise of what you're saying is correct for the slut shaming, sort of, although not exactly a privilege because men do get called sluts. Also not really a privilege in the example you used, as I said a girl wearing revealing clothing being mocked and shamed is something I've not seen before, I've seen a guy come in the gym before wearing tight shorts and they get looked at like psychotic perverts and laughed at , a woman comes in wearing the exact same thing and she gets preferential treatment by all the gym instructors, so the premise is correct, men are less likely to be called sluts, the example is wrong because wearing revealing clothing is definitely more acceptable for women to do.

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I've just realized I can't win in this argument.

You say men aren't forced to compete in society, I tell you that's not correct, then you admit it's not correct but tell me it proves another point you were talking about which I was never even talking to you about.

You say something wrong, I point out why it's wrong, then you say something like "Yeh but why does that have to be the case, why do gender roles have to exist?"

[Dystopia]

well you have just shifted the goal posts of pretty much all your arguments, now commercials do objectify men sometimes, men aren't subjected to unrealistic standards of beauty but now they are sometimes just not as much as women.

Everyone is, but the pressure is higher on female side, only someone who has never been in touch with western societies would think that. Beauty obsession is prevalent among everyone, and it's not good, but it is much more prevalent amongst women - The Disney story of the beautiful princess who marries the prince is anecdotally a good example of this. Females are told to be pretty much more than boys, and that's why little girls are playing with barbies making new haircuts while boys are playing cops or other stuff.

And I would debate you're pretty much wrong about all these things, I'd say men are bombarded with just as many perfect male faces and 6 packs and oiled up male bodies they just don't react as much as women do. And men are usually portrayed as being more dominant in the media because biologically in the human species men are more dominant and aggressive, not just because the men told the girls they weren't allowed to be.

They aren't, and you (and I) know we aren't - I've never been pressured by society to look like a fit 6 pack dude because I have a face others consider pretty, and a normal body, I was never forced to be overly fit or to wear make up or to shave my body hair, because I don't need it. I provided reasonable evidence and told you to do more research when it comes to sexual objectification and females - In fact I admitted I've done it myself. What more do you need? I'm not denying men have problems too, just that they are not as significant, and I'm saying this as a male who enjoys being so. I've suffered for not being satisfied with my body, but I know it's nothing compared to how many eating disorders, depressions and levels of body self-awareness females have.

There's a difference between men being portrayed as aggressive and females being constantly portrayed as objects to sell everything from beer to cars. In fact, I think more aggressive portrayals of women wouldn't be a bad idea. At least, a more neutral portrayal would be nice,

And as for the videos in what way were the men not represented as sex objects? They weren't admired for their personality, or their success. If they weren't as sexually attractive they wouldn't have been hired for those commercials. I don't even think any of them actually speak in those commercials.

Damn, you really didn't read the distinction between being attracted and sexually objectified? Someone can be attractive and do modelling and still not be sexual objectified, on the contrary someone may not be attractive as a whole and be sexually objectified. Watch the video and you'll understand there's a difference. Of course those men were accepted because they are hot/attractive, but that doesn't mean the commercial objectifies them - The other I showed you with males surrounding a female, on the other hand does because of the power-submission showed in the image.

Make an experiment - Take the most kinky pictures of models (females) on the internet, and tell me if a male did the same pose, it wouldn't look awkward... For instance, imagine a male in her place:
https://genderandsociety2013.files.wordp...penis1.jpg

Show me where I said it is wrong for women to be aggressive, you asked me have I ever thought that women might not be aggressive because people have told them to not be, I said no because like many other mammals it's pretty much biological, not cultural. It's testosterone and balls which makes it rare but not unheard of to have female dominance in societies. Rather than magazines and adverts. Out of every animal there is usually one sex which is dominant, and it's only humans which are intelligent enough to have magazines, adverts and so on.

[/quote]
I'm not arguing the biological side, but it's not fair when society penalizes females for being agressive like men, because sometimes just the only way to success. Why do sometimes females who own high end jobs get called "bossy" by their workers while male bosses are just called "bosses"?

The premise of what you're saying is correct for the slut shaming, sort of, although not exactly a privilege because men do get called sluts. Also not really a privilege in the example you used, as I said a girl wearing revealing clothing being mocked and shamed is something I've not seen before, I've seen a guy come in the gym before wearing tight shorts and they get looked at like psychotic perverts and laughed at , a woman comes in wearing the exact same thing and she gets preferential treatment by all the gym instructors, so the premise is correct, men are less likely to be called sluts, the example is wrong because wearing revealing clothing is definitely more acceptable for women to do.

Wearing clothing that reveals your body is just an example, there are many more - But it's not necessary that someone comments on it, I don't know anyone (my friends who are 20+) who doesn't think a woman wearing a shirt that shows her belly button is not a slut. I'm saying this for real, where I live a girl wearing a revealing shirt is considered (at least in thought) a slut and is associated with promiscuous behaviour, she is also approached more frequently by males who think she bangs everyone without effort.

You say men aren't forced to compete in society, I tell you that's not correct, then you admit it's not correct but tell me it proves another point you were talking about which I was never even talking to you about.

You say something wrong, I point out why it's wrong, then you say something like "Yeh but why does that have to be the case, why do gender roles have to exist?"

You are confusing stuff, I didn't and I apologize if I said unwillingly that men don't compete, of course we do!... But I was addressing specific problems of slut shaming between females. Heck even my mum says females are not united enough. I'll tell you a little experiment, which corroborates nothing but is worth giving a thought - Once I went to an engineering school, full of males, everyone got along fine, the atmosphere was nice, people all talked to each other. I then went to my GF's college that is populated mostly by girls - They are all divided into 20/30 different social groups of friends, hate each other and talk badly behind their backs, my girlfriend included, they literally criticize each other everyday by simple things like "what she was wearing today" or "how many make up she had". Do you think this is productive to society? Would you imagine men doing the same on a daily basis? No, because we get along much better, in fact, competition wise, I'm able to compete with my male friends and still remain friends..

I'll say it again that I'm not trying to say some groups like whites or males don't have problems, we all do, I'm just stating problems that are more predominant amongst other groups. I'm white, male and straight as I've stated already.

By the way, a curious fact - Sexual objectification is not something only men do, females objectify their peers as well and judge based on their looks. I'm judged by my looks as everyone else, but not as much as my female friends, and I'm aware of that.

[paulpablo]

There is no definition of either objectification or sexual objectification which says that the person being objectified has to be specifically shown to be less powerful or submissive.

It's the presentation of someone as a sexual object with no regard to the personality or other values of a person. When a persons body parts are singled out and separated from their personality and presented as primarily an object of sexual desire.

There are countless adverts like the ones I've shown you where the man is clearly there for no other reason than for his body to be used for the women to stare at for the purpose of the advertisement.

As i said the people in the advertisements don't even have lines to say in the diet coke advert the climbax of the piece isn't the close up of the mans facial expressions, it's him taking his top off and showing abdomen muscles.

The mans personality isn't being used to sell the product, his skills aren't, it's the mans abdomen muscles.

[Creed of Heresy]

See, I like women because they're not men.

[paulpablo]

They aren't, and you (and I) know we aren't - I've never been pressured by society to look like a fit 6 pack dude because I have a face others consider pretty, and a normal body, I was never forced to be overly fit or to wear make up or to shave my body hair, because I don't need it.

I never said we were pressured, I said we are bombarded by images of fit attractive men, at the cinema, on adverts, on everything. We are bombarded with bodies that will be impossible to achieve for a majority of people.
That's the bottom line, you said that we aren't but we are.

And your example is just your example, I know I've been with about 3 women who would tell me to shave my chest or alternatively pressure me to not shave my chest. Trends always change for men so one moment it's good to be hair the next it isn't, at least a woman has a predictable constant to aim for.

[CapnAwesome]

Something else to keep in mind when going over privilege: that by itself is a sign of privilege. Specifically, at my last full-time job, I was one of only a handful of white people in a call center that usually had 50 or so people there. Most of my coworkers were black. I never heard they talking about oppression or privilege or any of that stuff. Sure, I talked with them, and I listened to the conversations many of them had amongst each other. So, if privilege is such an important thing, why is it never talked about by underpaid, black people? Shouldn't they be the ones most concerned about it? Or are the only ones who are able to worry about privilege actually some of the most privileged people on earth? A bunch of upper-middle-class, college educated, white girls, constantly chastising everyone else for having privilege; that's what you usually find in social justice circles. And it would be far easier to take their condemnation of privileged people more seriously if they were as willing to condemn themselves as harshly as they condemn others.

Privileged Liberal White People are the only ones who give half a rats ass about privilege.

[Dystopia]

Something else to keep in mind when going over privilege: that by itself is a sign of privilege. Specifically, at my last full-time job, I was one of only a handful of white people in a call center that usually had 50 or so people there. Most of my coworkers were black. I never heard they talking about oppression or privilege or any of that stuff. Sure, I talked with them, and I listened to the conversations many of them had amongst each other. So, if privilege is such an important thing, why is it never talked about by underpaid, black people? Shouldn't they be the ones most concerned about it? Or are the only ones who are able to worry about privilege actually some of the most privileged people on earth? A bunch of upper-middle-class, college educated, white girls, constantly chastising everyone else for having privilege; that's what you usually find in social justice circles. And it would be far easier to take their condemnation of privileged people more seriously if they were as willing to condemn themselves as harshly as they condemn others.

Privileged Liberal White People are the only ones who give half a rats ass about privilege.

Where did you get that idea? I'm not even considered a liberal by my country's standards, in fact I like capitalism. Perhaps because it's impossible to keep track of how many people of either group talks about privilege it's unreasonable to say that only the privileged group is the one talking about it... There are many liberal whites who don't care about privilege.

There are many reasons why a group doesn't speak about privilege or lack of thereof, it's not because it doesn't exist.