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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:07 am
(January 30, 2015 at 10:45 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (January 30, 2015 at 10:23 am)SteveII Wrote: On Islam...
It seems that some cannot make the leap from my argument that Christianity is true because of the evidence of the resurrection to Islam is not true because of the evidence of the resurrection. While you might hold the opinion the evidence is weak, why would you think I have/want/need different reasons for thinking Islam is not true.
It sure as hell is a "leap". You have absolutely no way of refuting the claims of Islam besides saying "I believe in the resurrection, therefore islam isn't true". Your reasoning is dishonest and baseless, and any further discussion with you is utterly useless until you can at least take a moment to view your claims from the point of view of a muslim or non-believer who doesn't believe in the resurrection.
Waste of my goddamn time.
Your reasoning escapes me but I will continue.
I cannot hold the view that Christs teachings are true and evidenced by the resurrection AND hold the view that Islam is true. Any evidence I think sufficient to support Christianity would necessarily be evidence of why I thought Islam was wrong.
Mohammad wrote that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, was a prophet for the Jews, did many miracles (more than anyone ever) but stops shy of a crucifixion and resurrection, and certainly denies his deity. Since these things are foundation to Christianity, if one thinks Christianity is true, it is fair to say they believe Islam is false.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:08 am
(January 30, 2015 at 11:07 am)SteveII Wrote: Your reasoning escapes me but I will continue.
Pretty much sums up the last 30 pages.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:09 am
(January 29, 2015 at 9:47 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 5:45 pm)SteveII Wrote: The attestation of the crucifixion. Without that portion, it ALL unravels. Perhaps you are unaware of its importance. That God took on the form of a man to be a final sacrifice to bridge the gap so that man can have a relationship with his creator. No, he didn't, and if he had, that would be about the best moral argument against that relationship that I can imagine.
I am curious to more about your best moral argument.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:11 am
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2015 at 11:11 am by FatAndFaithless.)
(January 30, 2015 at 11:07 am)SteveII Wrote: Since these things are foundation to Christianity, if one thinks Christianity is true, it is fair to say they believe Islam is false.
That's the whole fucking point, Steve-o. The only refutation you can present to islam is "Well I just believe that Jesus was divine, so obviously Islam is false."
You can't just say "I believe Y" and present it as evidence for why X is false.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:32 am
(January 30, 2015 at 10:55 am)Chas Wrote: (January 30, 2015 at 10:23 am)SteveII Wrote: It seems that some cannot make the leap from my argument that Christianity is true because of the evidence of the resurrection to Islam is not true because of the evidence of the resurrection.
There is no evidence of the resurrection. Your foundation is quicksand.
4 gospels, acts, the letters of John, Paul, Peter and James. The fact is quite clear the first Christians--the ones who were present--believed these events happened (often not in their personal best interest) is additional evidence. Prophecies also exist to support the context and claims.
Again, you might not think highly of the evidence, but you cannot say there is none.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:33 am
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2015 at 11:35 am by Chas.)
(January 30, 2015 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: (January 30, 2015 at 10:55 am)Chas Wrote: There is no evidence of the resurrection. Your foundation is quicksand.
4 gospels, acts, the letters of John, Paul, Peter and James. The fact is quite clear the first Christians--the ones who were present--believed these events happened (often not in their personal best interest) is additional evidence. Prophecies also exist to support the context and claims.
Again, you might not think highly of the evidence, but you cannot say there is none.
Those are not eyewitness accounts, they are hearsay (at best). Hearsay is not evidence. Try again.
There are no non-religious accounts of the alleged events. This absence of evidence that one would expect to be there is pretty damning.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:34 am
"I heard from someone who saw it" isn't evidence, it's hearsay. Even "I saw it" isn't evidence, it's testimony. And when your 'witnesses' get the details wrong, it's not terribly useful.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:36 am
(January 30, 2015 at 11:11 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (January 30, 2015 at 11:07 am)SteveII Wrote: Since these things are foundation to Christianity, if one thinks Christianity is true, it is fair to say they believe Islam is false.
That's the whole fucking point, Steve-o. The only refutation you can present to islam is "Well I just believe that Jesus was divine, so obviously Islam is false."
You can't just say "I believe Y" and present it as evidence for why X is false.
No you misstate my premise. I believe Y because of Z set of evidence. This evidence is not compatible with X so therefore I don't believe X because of Z set of evidence.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:36 am
We've been through this at least three times already. This guy can't distinguish between the "claim" and "evidence for the claim". He's shown himself to be utterly unable (perhaps intentionally) to address the difference between the two, and I think it's just a waste of time at this point.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 30, 2015 at 11:37 am
(January 30, 2015 at 11:07 am)SteveII Wrote: Your reasoning escapes me but I will continue.
I think that says it all.
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