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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 25, 2015 at 8:51 pm
Good grief....is this still going on?
Time to apply the What Is More Likely Test.
Quote:What Is More Likely?
A) That ‘god’ tapped moses on the shoulder and told him to get his ass back to Egypt to free his chosen people from slavery; “I could do it myself, of course, said ‘god’ in fact, I could kill every motherfucking Egyptian with a thought and let my chosen people live at the only reliable water source in the region but, fuck it. I want you to lead them through the desert to an arid shithole.”
Or,
B) That some time towards the end of the first millennium the people who found themselves living in the aforementioned arid shithole invented a story to explain why they were there.
But, why stop there?
What is More Likely?
A) That ‘god’ having utterly fucked up the first time decided he had to knock up a virgin Palestinian girl so he could have a son who would then mouth a lot of silly platitudes and then get himself killed so that god could forgive mankind for a sin they never committed and after getting killed came back to life and flew up to fucking heaven.”
Or,
B) That a bunch of people took an existing myth and created a supposedly real hero to personify their desires for their godboy?
But – it continues…. What is More Likely?
A) Having fucked up twice already (some ‘god’ this guy is) decides they he has to pick another schlepper who likes to sleep in caves and fuck 9 year olds and have one of his ‘angels’ tell this illiterate carpet merchant the real scoop which he then wakes up and tells to other people. Eventually some other schmucks write it down and claim that it is completely identical to the verbal version delivered in the cave.
Or,
B) A bunch of fucking nomads with a serious inferiority complex make up a whole pile a shit to justify their rule over an empire which fell into their lap when the Byzantines and Persians ripped each other to shreds.
Yet…even more What is More Likely?
A) ‘God’ who by now looks like a first-class fuck up, forgets what he told the last guy about there being no more changes and sends some golden tablets to a 19th century American con man who invents a whole pile of shit about Planet Kolob and cons Mitt The Shitt Romney to run for president.
Or,
B) Joseph Smith was a fucking criminal who conned a shitload of stupid people and was righteously shot by an angry mob.
I submit that in every case, the answer is B
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 25, 2015 at 8:52 pm
(This post was last modified: January 25, 2015 at 8:53 pm by Dystopia.)
Islam - A guy claimed god spoke to him. That's all about it. [Let's hope no one bombs my house after saying this]
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 26, 2015 at 5:16 am
(January 25, 2015 at 8:52 pm)Blackout Wrote: Islam - A guy claimed god spoke to him. That's all about it. [Let's hope no one bombs my house after saying this]
Actually, a guy claimed that god talked to some other guy, through an angel....
Talk about going off on a tangent! (reference to common misspelling of angle)
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 26, 2015 at 5:42 am
(This post was last modified: January 26, 2015 at 6:15 am by Rayaan.)
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 26, 2015 at 6:38 am
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 26, 2015 at 8:04 am
(This post was last modified: January 26, 2015 at 8:27 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 26, 2015 at 5:42 am)Rayaan Wrote: My argument is simply that Muhammad claimed and preached to people that he was a Prophet of God, irrespective of whether the claim itself is true or not. Poca, however, thinks that the prophethood of Muhammad is more likely to have been a later addition (after his death) and thus Muhammad never claimed himself to be a Prophet. He thinks that Muhammad was initially just a military leader, and only later had prophethood attached to him for some reason, after his death. So we've been talking about which is more likely and why since there's no hard evidence for either position. That was very generous of Poca, to have given you such liberties. I'm not convinced that Mo was an actual person to begin with. Seems to me, he's a character in a book of fiction. Even so, with Poca, and all of that leeway, you haven't managed to get beyond the point of "people told stories about a guy named Mo", one of those stories is that he claimed to be a prophet - and I'm afraid that's not enough for me (and I know it isn't enough for you, anywhere else). Need I remind you that these stories contain moon splitting djinn magic? Not what I'd call reliable.
"If the stories in the quran are true, then the stories in the quran would be true!". Uthman is no companion of Mo unless there was a Mo to begin with.
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 26, 2015 at 9:02 am
(January 25, 2015 at 8:52 pm)Blackout Wrote: Islam - A guy claimed god spoke to him. That's all about it. [Let's hope no one bombs my house after saying this]
The word "prophet" is not a new idea to Islam or Christianity.
In polytheism they would have called them "oracles" or "soothsayers" or "seers".
It still amounts to either a deliberate con artist scamming people into following them, or a deluded human who really thinks they are talking to a divine higher power.
It still amounts to superstition.
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 27, 2015 at 5:27 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 5:36 am by robvalue.)
It amazes me that proof of these books being not completely wrong about everything is considered proof that they are in fact right about everything. That is a very low bar for a divinely inspired book, or even a regular book. 1/10 is not a passing grade for a deity. Especially one who could come clear all this confusion up if it bothered him in the slightest.
What kind of powerful, benevolent god needs a huge network of people constantly making excuses for him? And for his book? Getting a bit off topic, but I wanted to say stuff.
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 27, 2015 at 7:24 am
(January 27, 2015 at 5:27 am)robvalue Wrote: It amazes me that proof of these books being not completely wrong about everything is considered proof that they are in fact right about everything. That is a very low bar for a divinely inspired book, or even a regular book. 1/10 is not a passing grade for a deity. Especially one who could come clear all this confusion up if it bothered him in the slightest.
What kind of powerful, benevolent god needs a huge network of people constantly making excuses for him? And for his book? Getting a bit off topic, but I wanted to say stuff.
No kidding. "Poofs" everything into existence without any help, but needs a public relations department and a very crappy add magazine and needs flawed humans to sell for him.
God is like the boss of a robo call center, runs his marketing sweat shop center, cracks the whip to make workers call everyone they can, gets them to get angry at people like me who simply hang up cause I don't buy crap, then takes it out on the employee because they didn't make the sale. I finely figured out who this god is, he is the CEO of Dish Network.
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RE: It wasn't Mohammed who founded Islam.
January 28, 2015 at 5:45 pm
(January 26, 2015 at 5:16 am)pocaracas Wrote: Actually, a guy claimed that god talked to some other guy, through an angel....
I'll post a reply to your other post shortly.
But I was wondering, if a guy claimed something so extraordinary about another guy, for the first time, then he must be prepared to give an answer when the people around him ask him to explain how he knows that.
There are two possible replies he could give to that, which is that:
1. He heard it from someone else - which would mean that a guy claimed that a guy claimed that God talked to some other guy ... or ...
2. He heard it through a divine inspiration - which would mean that the guy himself claimed to be a Prophet.
Which is more likely to be his answer, and why?
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