The frogs kicked over a hornet's nest!

[robvalue]

Yeah, that's a fair assessment I think. A lot of rubbish, but sometimes good things too. They have a history of decent campaigns. It's not nearly as bad as fox imo.

[The Grand Nudger]

Serve your country then become a citizen.

While I'd have to confess a little bit of sympathy for the notion myself (and of course I would..eh, lol?), we'd have to consider that a citizenry that was entirely comprised of soldiers and former soldiers would lead inexorably to a more militarized state. Soldiers aren't made by gentle suggestion or rational argumentation, but by deep rooted subversion of what we might call our gentler instincts. This isn't to say that military indoctrination turns us into automatons, it's simply the acknowledgement that it does have -some effect- on how we view ourselves, others, and what is or is not acceptable or even desirable when it comes to the resolution of any given issue. A conversation that we currently have (regarding the appropriate level of militarization) would be altered in a fundamental way if the only voice which mattered (and enjoyed full protection of law and full enjoyment of rights) were those of soldiers and former soldiers (though interpretations of just what serving your country meant in his novel changed as criticism was levied). It's the very definition of a two class system.

I don't think that Heinlein made a very good case in his novel (which was a vehicle for a political ideology that most americans would likely find incredibly disturbing). The movie that most are familiar with was actually an -intentional- spoof of the novel. For an opposing take (if you enjoyed Heinlein - I certainly enjoyed the book even if I don't completely agree with the ideology therein) try "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman. Two very different authors with very different takes on life outside of their novels. Heinlein served in the Navy in the 30's and was a civilian by the time of WW2, Haldeman was a combat engineer in Vietnam, awarded the Purple Heart. Knowing only that about the two authors the differences in their narratives (and the ideologies contained therein) is illuminated immensely. They're both models of the same story, btw. Following a fresh recruit through his entry into service, assumption of a leadership position, and ending with the impending terminus of conflict and therefore reflection.

[JuliaL]

I might rather choose the Heinlein soldiers who knew the risk,loss and chaos of combat for citizens rather than drone pilots.

The mandatory service to warrant suffrage need not be military.

I'm not crazy about the way armies are assembled at all, given that the first thing done in basic training is to remove the individual's personality and replace it with one more to the liking of the state.

I have Starship Troopers and The Forever War side by side on my shelf. In the latter, I really liked how it handled time of transit for interstellar travel and the end, "I thought you started it."

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm not crazy about the way armies are assembled at all, given that the first thing done in basic training is to remove the individual's personality and replace it with one more to the liking of the state.

This is overstating the case insofar as my experience goes. Of course, Air Force BMT was only 7½ weeks when I went in. To be sure, our TI did tell us he was going to "tear us down and rebuild us the way the AF wanted us", but the silent "bullshit!" reply in my head was shared by many others in my flight, to hear them tell it. We came through it with personalities intact, more or less.

Basic training changes you, no doubt. AF BMT didn't have to overcome the ingrained taboo against killing, so perhaps the training didn't have to be as emotionally destructive as Army or Marine training?

[SteelCurtain]

Depends on which Basic Training you go to. My basic training was Plebe Summer at the Naval Academy. It's whole purpose is to get you into shape and teach you humility by taking your 4.0 GPA/jock ass and making you do menial/embarrassing things whilst running mostly.

From the Marines/Soldiers I coached in PTSD groups, the point of basic training was to make it so taking life is normal and laudable. "Shootin' towelheads", breeding in the inhumanity of the enemy so that shooting at them isn't taken as seriously as it should be. Which is at the same time despicable but somewhat necessary. I personally know of no other or more effective way, but I haven't given it much thought.

To the point, I would like to see some sort of civil service more heavily encouraged. Expanding the GI Bill into the private sector for civil service positions, something like that. Not necessarily military. Or even if military, farm out some of the thousands of civilian posts on military bases to college kids---at least the ones that don't require specialty education.

[The Grand Nudger]

I might rather choose the Heinlein soldiers who knew the risk,loss and chaos of combat for citizens rather than drone pilots.

The mandatory service to warrant suffrage need not be military.

For Heinlen, the "drone pilots" would be the crews of the ships that ferried the infantry, with an intermediary step between the two opposed groups being the actual dropship pilots who took the infantry from orbit to the ground themselves. Don't you think?

Civil service in a militarized state is only civil in name, and it's still a two class system, of course. One group has a sanctioned voice, the other does not.

I'm not crazy about the way armies are assembled at all, given that the first thing done in basic training is to remove the individual's personality and replace it with one more to the liking of the state.

I'd say re-purposed, not removed. Also...it;s not as though it isn't something that can't be controlled, if it were, then soldiers would be much less useful to their users. For example...you only need to say the right things- with the right terminology...and the Rhythm you guys know (what little of it you know) is on the shelf, but ultimately I'm the one shelfing him (and both are decidedly "myself"). The other guy, "he's got this thaaaaaaaang...goin oooooon". Glimpses here and there, but it's largely behind me. There's this guy that will bayonet a radiator or a person with about the same regard for either, but also a guy who likes to cuddle with puppies and can be trusted to make an infant feel loved. Find a way to square that shit away in context and you'll be a very sought after person. In the way you've expressed it, training allowed a person like myself - who positively hates the state and has hated the state since the concept hit my radar- to be exceedingly loyal, violently loyal, murderously loyal..... to the very same. As a soldier, Uncle Sam say's "Shoot this guy" and I stand-at-a-fucking-tention to salute and execute. As a civilian, Uncle Sam asks me for my drivers license and I say "for what?". hrugs:

-You've gotta wonder, if you're the wondering kind...how much of that is their influence, and how much of it was already there. Is it a strictly conditioned response or simple encouragement?

I have Starship Troopers and The Forever War side by side on my shelf. In the latter, I really liked how it handled time of transit for interstellar travel and the end, "I thought you started it."

Fucking classic..right, lol? But now you've ruined it for those that haven't read it!

Of course, Air Force BMT was only 7½ weeks when I went in. To be sure, our TI did tell us he was going to "tear us down and rebuild us the way the AF wanted us", but the silent "bullshit!" reply in my head was shared by many others in my flight, to hear them tell it. We came through it with personalities intact, more or less.

I spent 12 weeks at a holding facility awaiting a spot. This gave them time to issue gear, get paperwork done, and get us acclimated to day to day service life -without- any freedoms that I would later enjoy. I went from my bunk to the defac to wherever paperwork was waiting and back - or did nothing....no calls out, no smoking, no snacks, no stores, no tv, no radio, no family...no nothing. I probably would have stabbed a motherfucker right then and there had they told me I could leave the compound if I did so. Then 8 weeks of basic. Then 4 weeks of MOS specific followed by an eval. Then 8 more weeks of combined indoctrination (their terminology, not mine...lol) and specialty specific - then off to my unit for another 8 weeks until I was deemed adequate for their gear and mission, followed by an average of 4 months of off-base training in a simulated combat environment every year at a minimum (one chunk of which had to be a 12 week sustained exercise- I was a fast tracker). This was in addition to our daily training and PT. Being deployed, relative to that...was a vacation.

Basic training changes you, no doubt. AF BMT didn't have to overcome the ingrained taboo against killing, so perhaps the training didn't have to be as emotionally destructive as Army or Marine training?

Well, we started out with paper targets made of concentric circles. Then it was black man shaped targets. Then it was 3d rubber models of a human torso with facial features and other amusing detail. All reference to the humanity of the target was scrubbed. They're not people, they're contacts, or targets. You aren't shooting at humans, you're "putting rounds downrange". You're awarded for displaying violent tendencies and shamed for leveraging any individual judgement (all the while being told that you will be taken to task if you fail to leverage individual judgement- setting up a situation in which you are always potentially in the wrong with disastrous consequences for yourself and therefore perpetually nervous/agitated).

I eventually did a brief stint as NCOIC of a MOUT range. Military Operations in Urban Terrain - this was my particular AOE within my larger MOS. Let me tell you a little about how participants got graded there. To shoot the wrong target in a breach is frowned upon (simulated non-combatant), to fail to shoot the right target is a failure condition. If you shoot -too many- of the wrong targets, you -might- be "reprocessed"...start over. If you shoot -too few- of the right targets, you -will be-. Selection bias favors the habitual trigger puller.

Here's what I used to tell the helmets (because it's what I was told). "When it doubt, take her out". It helps to keep stuff short and catchy. Keep in mind, these people were training for deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they were already used to firing at black silhouettes by cruel happenstance.

Now, I don;t think that any of that (and obviously theres more) forcibly compels a person to kill - but it smoothes the road for that final decision, which is, ultimately,m a decision that all of us are already capable of making before we ever step foot in the recruiters office.

@Steel, didn't know you coached PTSD, rough stuff - good on ya.

(now that yall got me remebering it...I do seem to recall a strange feeling at the body range, it wasn;t like the other ranges. The reality of what we were training for was peaking through the veneer, I think...but that went away...they were just body models, after all. )

[Faith No More]

And you don't see their actions of jailing muslims for speaking in support of the C Hebdo shooting as being over reactive? These muslims were charged with activly supporting a terrorist act?!?

Not to mention from these 13 deaths they are doing the very same thing they blasted us for with our patriot act.

Over-reactive? You support "enhanced interrogations" for terrorists and have audacity to point at the French and claim they're being over-reactive?

Have you ever, just once in your life, tried to understand the world outside of your own biases? Do you ever try to correct your perspective for observer bias?

[JuliaL]

I'm not crazy about the way armies are assembled at all, given that the first thing done in basic training is to remove the individual's personality and replace it with one more to the liking of the state.

This is overstating the case insofar as my experience goes. Of course, Air Force BMT was only 7½ weeks when I went in. To be sure, our TI did tell us he was going to "tear us down and rebuild us the way the AF wanted us", but the silent "bullshit!" reply in my head was shared by many others in my flight, to hear them tell it. We came through it with personalities intact, more or less.

Basic training changes you, no doubt. AF BMT didn't have to overcome the ingrained taboo against killing, so perhaps the training didn't have to be as emotionally destructive as Army or Marine training?

Perhaps the killing force projection done by the AF is intrinsically more remote than that done in other, more hands on branches. Or maybe the all volunteer army has eliminated the screaming DI who is YOUR MOTHER, YOUR FATHER and YOUR &^%%$* PRIEST AND GOD YOU MAGGOTS. But my memory goes back to the pre-Viet Nam period where basic was famous for sleep deprivation, threats of and actual violence to persons, physical exhaustion and extended extreme discomforts. All of these are classic North Korean circa 1950 brain washing elements. The survivors were intended to become converts to the cause of the corps where it is only by the grace of the founding fathers that they ultimately stayed under (it may be slipping today) elected civilian control. Depersonalization of the other to the point of sanctioning homicide is merely part of the system.

I do not write in opposition to these methods. They are stable, time tested and probably necessary to the survival and functioning of our democratic(sic) system.

For Heinlen, the "drone pilots" would be the crews of the ships that ferried the infantry, with an intermediary step between the two opposed groups being the actual dropship pilots who took the infantry from orbit to the ground themselves. Don't you think?

I'm out of state at the moment and can't check my book. But didn't the bald pretty lady pilot (Carmen...I remembered!) get vaporized in orbit? So I don't see them as being not at risk in the same way that our remote control killers are in Nevada or wherever they're based.

I really liked how it handled time of transit for interstellar travel and the end

---

, "I thought you started it."

---

But now you've ruined it for those that haven't read it!

Mybad, but it was such a small part in such a great book I thought it wouldn't matter. And probably won't be remembered by the affected individuals. Still, sorry.

I'd say re-purposed, not removed.

Could be, or could be even that they built a new one side by side with the old. That might explain some of the PTSD issues the more unfortunate, perhaps more human to start with, individuals experience post service. The person who is best equipped to survive combat is not the person best suited to a 9 to 5 as a bank officer. The jobs take more than just different skills, they take different people. The veteran, particularly when not supported by comrades or family, can have real trouble when he has to pick which person to sit at the desk and stare at a monitor. I remember Viet Nam friends who either shut down: Why should I do this stupid job? I was toe to toe with Death six months ago. Or one who was a bit more psychotic and kept fighting when he got back. Characteristic quote after a bad weekend, "Sure I shot him, but he wasn't going to die. I didn't shoot him bad enough."
That second person can be a real bastard.