Girl dies of stupid parents

[Mister Agenda]

We just went through an abortion argument a little while back and if I remember correctly all the atheist were in favor of allowing women and girls of any age to make a decision to have an abortion.

That sounds like us, though occasionally you'll run into an atheist who disagrees, as has happened on these forums more than once.

Granted one is not nearly as life threatening, but both are serious medical procedures. It's okay with you guys that a girl can make a medical decision and not even tell her parents she's having it, only because you support the immorality involved because she got pregnant.

That's a mischaracterization. I'll lay odds the vast majority have a problem with someone being forced to bear a child against their will (literally forced labor and a form of slavery IMHO), and our opinion is NOT based on 'Oh, she had underage sex and I approve of that, so let's not have any consequences since we WANT children having sex and getting pregnant. More abortions that way, and abortions are good!' The longer I'm on these forums, the harder it gets to believe that Christians are capable of discussing one of their hot-button issues in good faith. Can we order an Episcopelian from somewhere?

Leave the parents out, yep it's her body she should be able to make that decision on her own.

With input from qualified physicians familiar with her case.

But now that the shoe's on the other foot and a young girl wants to make her own medical decision you do not like it, you all jump on the bandwagon and condemn the parents.

For getting their little girl killed with quack remedies against the advice of her doctors.

You all don't see what's right in front of your faces, you will always go against the parents, they (the parents) have no right to make a decision about their baby girl having an abortion and they need to tell their baby girl she has no rights to make her own health decisions.

They need to follow the best medical advice available to them. Getting a second opinion from a qualified physician is rational. Turning to quacks is not. Parents need to follow medical advice or get out of the way. Doctors DO take into account quality of life following chemo in their recommendations.

That's as wishy washy as it gets, this is only selfishness at it's greatest height, let's say your ideas conform to a 60's thing, "down with the authority because by our standards they can't do it right."

It's consistent, it's only the atheists in your head that are wishy washy, and that says more about your head than us: the best medical treatment comes from the scientific method and accumulated medical knowledge. I would not advise a girl to get an abortion against her doctor's medically-based recommendation. I don't think doctors are infallible oracles, but their judgment can be relied upon to be significantly better in medical scenarios than a layperson's.

Now I'm not saying the parents did the right thing, can't trust a blog for correct information, that's naive as possible.

Hallelujah!

What I'm saying is that parents should always be involved in their child's medical decisions.

To the point of condemning their children to die if they disagree with the child's doctors?

You condemn these parents without all the facts, facts they have, you decide on supposed facts by a third party.

If they have facts unavailable to the girl's doctors, they should publish. The outcome suggests their information was NOT better than the information her doctors had.

You rant and rave about third party facts coming from the Bible, yet uphold third party facts from an internet blog, without knowing the person who gave the supposed facts.

This article is not the only source of information on this case. It's pretty famous. But no, we can't comment on more than the facts that we have. If you have additional facts on this case, please present them.

Can you get any more wishy washy, I mean really can you?

GC

Semantically empty.

[Nope]

I think he's saying that the Christian claim is that God has infinite resources, so doing something about the world's ills would be less than trivial for such a being.


What business is it of yours? You are in no position to even guess what Xeno is or is not doing, let alone imply that he is doing less than you. Sounds like you're trying to change the subject and make it personal.

Christians are to carry out God's work in the world. Jesus has told us to help the poor and needy. We are to be the instruments of his work on the earth. That's what christians are doing in Africa and other places where people are destitute. We all can't be there directly providing help, but we can give of our resources and we can also help our neighbors here. When I asked what he was doing to help, I was alluding to the fact that our job is not to sit back and call on God to fix everything, but to be involved in fixing it. That's what we're called to do. What bothers me is people that blast christians for not helping with people's physical needs, which we clearly do help with, but not doing anything about it themselves. If they are doing something, then good for them. I know there's atheists and other non-christians involved in this work too. While we're helping to feed and clothe people and help them become self-sufficient, we can also teach them that, even if they die dirt poor, they still have worth in this life and the next.

The young girl's parents believed god spoke specifically to their daughter to stop her treatment which ended up killing her. How can you believe both that your god speaks to some random little girl in Canada but doesn't also help people suffering hunger in other countries. I agree with your overall post that we should help others but your misunderstanding the point that some people are trying to make.

If you are a Christian, don't you ask yourself what the point is? What is the point of this girl dying when she had medical care available to her? Why would you god appear to her and tell her to use alternative medicine which won't help her?

[Norman Humann]

If you are a Christian, don't you ask yourself what the point is? What is the point of this girl dying when she had medical care available to her? Why would you god appear to her and tell her to use alternative medicine which won't help her?

I think it's time for another Predict The Answer.
Which will it be? God works in mysterious ways? You don't understand the glory of god? Or maybe something about the undeniably wonderful afterlife?

[Mister Agenda]

You all make it extremely easy to generalize atheist, I've been watching this for nearly five years now, many things I'm not good at, but ask anyone that knows me and they will tell you I have a gift for observation.

You must act very differently in real life than you do here if people you know tend to come to THAT conclusion. Here you seem impenetrably clueless on any matters regarding atheism.

So if you do not want to be fitted into the same lump then act differently from the lump.

GC

Funny how many similar conclusions people tend to reach without any prior collusion once they stop using ancient scriptures as though they were authoritative, isn't it? To a certain kind of mind, conspiracy is a more credible explanation than the idea that without scriptures telling them what to think, people possessed of information accumulated over the last couple of thousand years can discover that reason and science often lead them to the same place on many matters.

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At least to that fucking spelling mistake.

I love it when people point out spelling mistakes, they have nothing real to add to the conversations and the replies are as I expected, you all are extremely easy to lump together, because you all evolved out of the same lump.

GC

It's not the mistake that irks so much. Typos and misspellings are something to which no one is immune. It's refusing to learn the correct spelling or being unwilling to even admit you've spelled something incorrectly. That's indicative of deeper character flaws that have implications for honest discussion. Being able to admit a mistake is a virtue, and if you can't admit even the small obvious ones, you are probably incapable of admitting any at all. At which point the discussion is mostly for the benefit of the lurkers, who will be at least entertained by it, as it's obviously not going to actually go anywhere.

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What. Could you rephrase that in a less insane way so people can understand?
What in his post made you say that?

His dislike of what the article implies about letting parents override doctors.

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What. Could you rephrase that in a less insane way so people can understand?
What in his post made you say that?

The blog itself you idiot, it stated a 75% rate, did you check to see if that was true or did you just assume it was the truth, that's not the way of logical people, so you must not be nearly as logical as you believe your self to be.

GC

Argument from authority is only a fallacy if the authority is not qualified on the subject at hand. There's no good reason to presume that someone else could give a better estimate of the girl's odds than her own doctors.

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What. Could you rephrase that in a less insane way so people can understand?
What in his post made you say that?

probably the post i provided by the American cancer soceity that shows how survival rate ratios are actually given and evaluated by people who treat cancer maybe... you know the one I have be talking about since my second post.

Despite the fallacy of applying averages to a specific case, you DO keep talking about the article you linked as though it overrides the informed opinions of the girl's doctors on her specific case.

[Lek]

The young girl's parents believed god spoke specifically to their daughter to stop her treatment which ended up killing her. How can you believe both that your god speaks to some random little girl in Canada but doesn't also help people suffering hunger in other countries. I agree with your overall post that we should help others but your misunderstanding the point that some people are trying to make.

If you are a Christian, don't you ask yourself what the point is? What is the point of this girl dying when she had medical care available to her? Why would you god appear to her and tell her to use alternative medicine which won't help her?

You and I view life and death differently. I assume that you feel this life is the most important thing to anybody. I believe that this life is important also, but not as important as eternal life with God. We can't put ourselves in the place of the girl and her parents. Obviously, they were convinced that the chemo therapy nearly killed her. She had been through it and didn't want to go through any more. She was convinced that God spoke to her. Who knows? She chose the path that gave her more peace. She could have gone through more grueling chemo and then died anyway.

Who says that God isn't helping people in other countries? Every day there's people there helping the needy. Like I said, God doesn't usually just reach down and heal somebody. He helps others through us. That is the message of Jesus. I believe he helped the girl in this story, but she died. Maybe she lived and died better than if she had continued conventional treatment. But at any rate, I believe that she is much better off now. That doesn't mean I think we should just kill all kids so they can go to heaven. We all have a mission to fulfill here and we have no right to murder. But there is a time, when we are ill, to stop fighting and let it go. People make that decision every day. I guess if many were to believe in God he would have to be the kind to just make everything wonderful, but that not the way he made it. We have to struggle. We've pretty much all managed to accept that fact of life.

[FatAndFaithless]

"Doing God's work, 'cause God isn't going to."

[Mister Agenda]

Christians are to carry out God's work in the world.

That seems mostly honored in the breach, but I agree that's the theory.

Jesus has told us to help the poor and needy.

That's nice, especially for adults that still need an authority figure to tell them that.

We are to be the instruments of his work on the earth. That's what christians are doing in Africa and other places where people are destitute.

And many of them are actually doing it in ways that actually help people. Good for them.

We all can't be there directly providing help, but we can give of our resources and we can also help our neighbors here.

So can we.

When I asked what he was doing to help, I was alluding to the fact that our job is not to sit back and call on God to fix everything, but to be involved in fixing it.

I was starting to wonder if you were going to get to anything resembling a reply to my query about why you challenged Xeno. Thanks for not losing track of the subject.

That's what we're called to do. What bothers me is people that blast christians for not helping with people's physical needs, which we clearly do help with, but not doing anything about it themselves.

And you have no reason to think that's the case for Xeno. Pre-emptive strike? I think the charitable thing is to presume others are doing what they can given their circumstances. Rarely can we possess the knowledge that someone else is being less charitable than we are unless they say so. And maybe not even then, if they're modest.

If they are doing something, then good for them. I know there's atheists and other non-christians involved in this work too.

Which puts you at least a peg above some of your co-religionists who can't seem to accept that we could possibly have an interest in helping people. That shouldn't make you exceptional, but on these forums it does, and I appreciate your ability to see us as human beings who can want to help people.

While we're helping to feed and clothe people and help them become self-sufficient, we can also teach them that, even if they die dirt poor, they still have worth in this life and the next.

At least we can agree they have worth. And that's not nothing. I appreciate your efforts on their behalf, and hope I'm doing as much myself.

[Esquilax]

Who says that God isn't helping people in other countries? Every day there's people there helping the needy. Like I said, God doesn't usually just reach down and heal somebody.

But apparently he comes down to convince children to die?

Lek, aren't you one of those christians who excuses the problem of evil via arguing for free will? I could have sworn I've read that from you at some point, but I don't want to assume.

[Mister Agenda]

If you are a Christian, don't you ask yourself what the point is?

You and I view life and death differently. I assume that you feel this life is the most important thing to anybody. I believe that this life is important also, but not as important as eternal life with God.

If you are correct, does that make this life less valuable?

We can't put ourselves in the place of the girl and her parents.

Empathy has its limits.

Obviously, they were convinced that the chemo therapy nearly killed her. She had been through it and didn't want to go through any more. She was convinced that God spoke to her. Who knows?

No one. It's unknowable.

She chose the path that gave her more peace.

She chose the path of lowest chance of survival.

She could have gone through more grueling chemo and then died anyway.

That's true. But according to the people best in a postiion to estimate her odds that we know both actually exist and actually talked to this girl, her odds of not dying if she did that were about 75%.

Who says that God isn't helping people in other countries?

If he is, for some reason he seems to do a lot more for people in developed countries.

Every day there's people there helping the needy.

Because God isn't there helping the needy.

Like I said, God doesn't usually just reach down and heal somebody.

If ever.

He helps others through us.

And if we fail, he lets those others suffer horribly.

That is the message of Jesus.

At least parts of what Jesus said were a good message. I don't know a better moral parable than that of the Good Samaritan.

I believe he helped the girl in this story, but she died.

If Jesus was actually involved, he behaved as a spirit powerless to intervene except with advice. If he had power, and chose to exercise it, he could have taken the girl's life peacefully in her sleep without dragging her parents into it, though they seem capable of rationalizing away any culpability on their part. I might do that too, it might be impossible to live with the realization you may have helped kill your daughter.

Maybe she lived and died better than if she had continued conventional treatment.

True. You can 'maybe' any unknown. Maybe the sun was covered with pink and purple checkmarks a million years ago.

But at any rate, I believe that she is much better off now.

But your reason to believe that seems to start and stop at it being what you believe.

That doesn't mean I think we should just kill all kids so they can go to heaven.

Thank goodness!

We all have a mission to fulfill here and we have no right to murder. But there is a time, when we are ill, to stop fighting and let it go. People make that decision every day.

Yes. But they should make it based on medical advice, not visions or quackery.

I guess if many were to believe in God he would have to be the kind to just make everything wonderful, but that not the way he made it. We have to struggle. We've pretty much all managed to accept that fact of life.

But most have not come to grips with the inconsistency between the world we have and the claim that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. Drich has. He has concluded the God is not omnibenevolent, which does seem to be the leg of theodicy believers are most often willing to cut short.

Personally, I think an omnibenevolent God doing the best it can in an unimaginably complex universe that it made but can't quite make come out right is the nobler and more preferable option.

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This is where an Episcopelian would come in handy. I imagine he or she would say that the best thing would have been for the parents to have followed the advice of the doctors, but as an innocent the child is in heaven now, and at least we can take some comfort from that, if we believe in that sort of thing.

[Jacob(smooth)]

It seems like Jesus advised her to seek alternate treatment. Oops.

Yep, now we're just waiting for Drich to absorb this very obvious fact, that has been presented to him multiple times, in clear and unambiguous language.

... Might take a while.

I'm just going to pop this here, just in case anyone might miss it otherwise. It's fairly pivotal to the "debate".